[confirmed] Flames will go after Derek Ryan in FA

[Kovaz]

This makes me nervous because a lot of the arguments in favour of signing him revolve around this idea of "4th line center with 38 points," which isn't entirely accurate.

His top 5 line combinations at 5v5 were:
Skinner-Ryan-Stempniak
Skinner-Ryan-Williams
McGinn-Ryan-Williams
Skinner-Ryan-Lindholm
Nordstrom-Ryan-Stempniak

And he was a mainstay on the #2PP unit as well. As far as I can tell, the Canes ran the following forwards on the PP:
PP1: Lindholm-Aho-Terevainen-Staal
PP2: Ryan-Skinner-Williams-Rask

Williams and Skinner were the #3 and #4 scorers on the team, so I'd argue Ryan was deployed more like a #2C last year.

His puck possession and faceoff stats obviously differentiate him from Brouwer, but I still think signing him runs some similar risks. We've already got enough forwards that putting Ryan on the PP would be taking ice time from someone (probably Bennett, Jankowski, or Frolik). And if he's not playing on the PP, I doubt we get anywhere near 38 points out of him. And he's probably looking to get paid 38 points worth.

Our bottom 6 has been #### precisely because it's a dumping ground for failed veteran signings. Let the kids run with it and IMO we'll be pleasantly surprised. We're so terrified of a young player struggling on the 4th line that we'd rather spend 4x as much to have a veteran player be equally as bad.

[getbak]

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?repo...meOnIcePerGame

Looking at these stats, Ryan was 8th on the Hurricanes in even-strength ice time per game for forwards. That seems completely in-line with what you'd expect from him.

I'll admit that I don't really know the Carolina roster very well, but none of the names with less ice time really jump out as guys who were getting their spots stolen by Ryan.

Maybe he should be a 4th line player. In Calgary, with a fully-healthy roster, he probably is a 4th line player.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

I maybe the minority here but I am tired of these signings for the bottom 6. Let the young guys finally take the ball and run with it. Year after year we see the same type of signing and it always fails.

If they let Shore walk, there's still room for young guys (< 82 NHL games bolded).

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Bennett-Jankowski-Tkachuk
Mangiapane-Backlund-Frolik
Lazar-Ryan-Foo

Brouwer
Klimchuk

That's before injuries. How many guys from Stockton are really knocking at the door anyway? Mangiapane, Foo.... ?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Mattman

With respect to your post, that kind of thinking is part of the problem.

Instead of seeing what Shore can do in an expanded role (meaning no one expects him to play all 82 games) with the Flames, why are we so willing to hand Derek Ryan a roster spot and expect him to be the solution "because he put up better numbers under different circumstances" than the other guy did?

Certainly smells like another Troy Brouwer situation to me.

I'm sure that this team would perform the exact same if we didn't take him July 1st, and waited until maybe, I don't know, October at the least to start handing out roster spots to guys that have never played within this organization.

By October the guys that can actually improve the lineup are off the market.
I find this disconnect in logic to be hard to grasp.
We know the bottom two lines didn't produce last year.
Yet people are concerned about upgrading the spots with a player that has shown the ability to perform in that role?
I don't get it.
What are we hanging on to?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It does seem like Lindholm is not much of a finisher yet. And supposedly he was a staple on the Carolina PP in front of the net. He had significantly more PP time than Ferland over the last 2 years.

He plays in all situations including short handed, powerplay, 3 on 3. Has better underlying numbers and is progressing towards either a second line RW or a first line RW.

Peters this morning talked about him being a 55 point player.

They're not in the same stratosphere to me.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

Our bottom 6 has been #### precisely because it's a dumping ground for failed veteran signings. Let the kids run with it and IMO we'll be pleasantly surprised. We're so terrified of a young player struggling on the 4th line that we'd rather spend 4x as much to have a veteran player be equally as bad.

Not sure where this false narrative is coming from.

We graduated almost an entire line of young players from Stockton last season.

There very much was room for young players in the bottom six and it was one of the worst in the league.

I fail to see how massively upgrading Stajan somehow creates the roadblock you're suggesting for young players.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

We're so terrified of a young player struggling on the 4th line that we'd rather spend 4x as much to have a veteran player be equally as bad.

Who do you have in mind? Curtis "51 points in 245 career games" Lazar?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

This makes me nervous because a lot of the arguments in favour of signing him revolve around this idea of "4th line center with 38 points," which isn't entirely accurate.

His top 5 line combinations at 5v5 were:
Skinner-Ryan-Stempniak
Skinner-Ryan-Williams
McGinn-Ryan-Williams
Skinner-Ryan-Lindholm
Nordstrom-Ryan-Stempniak

And he was a mainstay on the #2PP unit as well. As far as I can tell, the Canes ran the following forwards on the PP:
PP1: Lindholm-Aho-Terevainen-Staal
PP2: Ryan-Skinner-Williams-Rask

Williams and Skinner were the #3 and #4 scorers on the team, so I'd argue Ryan was deployed more like a #2C last year.

His puck possession and faceoff stats obviously differentiate him from Brouwer, but I still think signing him runs some similar risks. We've already got enough forwards that putting Ryan on the PP would be taking ice time from someone (probably Bennett, Jankowski, or Frolik). And if he's not playing on the PP, I doubt we get anywhere near 38 points out of him. And he's probably looking to get paid 38 points worth.

Our bottom 6 has been #### precisely because it's a dumping ground for failed veteran signings. Let the kids run with it and IMO we'll be pleasantly surprised. We're so terrified of a young player struggling on the 4th line that we'd rather spend 4x as much to have a veteran player be equally as bad.

Keep in mind Peters is an adjust on the fly, go with who's hot type of coach and not a rigid line guy.

If a bad Hurricane team had Ryan going he'd be getting looks with their better players often.

[Split98]

Fine with the pickup, but I hope they're looking to keep Shore around as well.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

The reason I am not thrilled about Derek Ryan is that the Flames seem to need an offensive difference maker. Instead the Flames keep going after two way players, which is good; however, it also contributes to less creativity with a man advantage, or trailing late in a game.

I pretty much see it your way as well. The Flames were a bottom 5 team in GF last season and that’s one of the primary reasons why we missed the playoffs.

7 of the 8 teams that went to the 2nd round of the playoffs finished top 10 in goals this year (SJ finished 12th). Until we become a mlore dangerously offensive team and find better scoring depth, I just don’t think we ever become anything more than a bubble playoff team or 1st round fodder.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If they let Shore walk, there's still room for young guys (< 82 NHL games bolded).

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Bennett-Jankowski-Tkachuk
Mangiapane-Backlund-Frolik
Lazar-Ryan-Foo

Brouwer
Klimchuk

That's before injuries. How many guys from Stockton are really knocking at the door anyway? Mangiapane, Foo.... ?

Your fourth line is all right shooters and your third line all left shooters

Frolik(L)-Backlund(L)-Foo(R)
Mangiapane(L)/Klimchuk(L)-Ryan(R)-Lazar(R)

Would balance out the handedness slightly better. Those bottom two lines would be a massive upgrade on what we had last year

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Interesting because I see it differently. I think they have enough pure offensive talent but lack really quality two way players. I don't think Ryan is a top line player but he's the type of guy I think they need. You need guys up and down the line up who can play two way hockey. On most contending teams even the top offensive guys play complete games.
The Flames right now have too many guys that are only good at half the game.

Last season the Flames were last in the NHL in 3rd period goals at 61. I don't know if its an indicator of Gulutzan hockey of trying to defend a lead, or the ease with which they were shut down late in games. In addition, on the Flames' PP teams would just collapse instead of having to game plan for a shot coming from either of circles.

As far as forwards that consistently pose a threat with their shot I have Monahan(assuming the injuries from last season don't limit it), and maybe Jankowski. I don't see Gaudreau/Tkachuk/Backlund simply beating a goalie with a shot clean consistently enough. That's also an area where I think the Flames are going to miss Ferland.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think Hathaway is a high character guy but I don't think he has shown he can effectively take a regular shift.

Ryan has.

I wasn't really talking about Ryan... I was talking about Brouwer. I would claim that with Ryan taking the position on the PP that Brouwer was mindboggling given by default due to having a RH shot he doesn't provide anything that Hathaway doesn't provide at 20% of the cost. So the Flames could buy Brouwer out and lose literally nothing in terms of on ice performance. So it would make sense to buy him out and save the money.

[TheScorpion]

Hathaway is really awful and I don't want his total offensive ineptitude anywhere near this team again.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

This guy is going to get overpaid and I would prefer they get a legit top 6 guy that bumps another player from the current top 6 to bottom six to address that issue rather than overpay for bottom six talent.

At this point, there are two ways the Flames can pick up a top-six forward:

* UFA signing of an ageing Neal/Perron/JVR for 4 x 6 mil or higher.

* Trade that will cost some combination of Bennett/Jankowski/Anderson/2019 1st

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Hathaway is really awful and I don't want his total offensive ineptitude anywhere near this team again.

He is a good 13th forward. If he is a regular than we have problems.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

At this point, there are two ways the Flames can pick up a top-six forward:

* UFA signing of an ageing Neal/Perron/JVR for 4 x 6 mil or higher.

* Trade that will cost some combination of Bennett/Jankowski/Anderson/2019 1st

I would be okay with trading Bennett+2019 1st for a legitimate top-six forward.

[delayedreflex]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

This makes me nervous because a lot of the arguments in favour of signing him revolve around this idea of "4th line center with 38 points," which isn't entirely accurate.

His top 5 line combinations at 5v5 were:
Skinner-Ryan-Stempniak
Skinner-Ryan-Williams
McGinn-Ryan-Williams
Skinner-Ryan-Lindholm
Nordstrom-Ryan-Stempniak

And he was a mainstay on the #2PP unit as well. As far as I can tell, the Canes ran the following forwards on the PP:
PP1: Lindholm-Aho-Terevainen-Staal
PP2: Ryan-Skinner-Williams-Rask

Williams and Skinner were the #3 and #4 scorers on the team, so I'd argue Ryan was deployed more like a #2C last year.

His puck possession and faceoff stats obviously differentiate him from Brouwer, but I still think signing him runs some similar risks. We've already got enough forwards that putting Ryan on the PP would be taking ice time from someone (probably Bennett, Jankowski, or Frolik). And if he's not playing on the PP, I doubt we get anywhere near 38 points out of him. And he's probably looking to get paid 38 points worth.

Our bottom 6 has been #### precisely because it's a dumping ground for failed veteran signings. Let the kids run with it and IMO we'll be pleasantly surprised. We're so terrified of a young player struggling on the 4th line that we'd rather spend 4x as much to have a veteran player be equally as bad.

The picture you're painting makes it seem like Ryan is a bottom-six talent who is capable of performing decently when paired with top-six talent - so perhaps the centre equivalent to Ferland? That doesn't sound like a bad thing - but I think it depends how much we end up paying for him. I think a $2.5M x 3yr or $3M x 2yr contract would be manageable - but if he is demanding $3.5M+ (which would be what you would expect for a 38 point player) it might not be the best choice.

The thing is, I'm not sure which kids we have that can really step in and improve our bottom six. Mangiapane deserves a shot, and possibly Foo, but they are far from a sure thing and with Jankowski graduated I don't think we really have any decent prospect centres left in the system. Maybe if you play Lindholm at centre that would bump Jankowski down to the 4th line centre - but then our winger depth is looking pretty sad.

In any case, I think getting bottom-six players who can actually score will be critical to success - certainly both Vegas and Washington showed that this year. It would be great it we could get that through our farm team graduates, but frankly, I'm not sure we have the players in our system.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by keenan87

I would be okay with trading Bennett+2019 1st for a legitimate top-six forward.

Agree totally but is Bennett's value high enough to get what we are looking for? But I guess he would be the kicker in a deal involving our 2019 1st round pick.

[Willi Plett]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Does Shore have more long-term upside than Derek Ryan? He is younger, sure, but has only scored a career high of 6 goals and 14 points in 77 games. Ryan has played only two full seasons in the NHL and has clipped along at a consistent 0.5 pts/gp. I seriously doubt Shore will ever get to that level at any point in his career.

Don’t get me wrong, I think Ryan is a valuable upgrade in the bottom six. My concern is more about term, $, ice time and utilization. I think like many UFA deals it will be more term and $ than I’d like and that will force increased role ala Brouwer.

I think he is what we need in our bottom six. More scoring, great face offs and good for special teams. My concern is he’s 31 and we’ve seen players trail off quickly at these ages.

Shore is 25/26 and should be able to be signed relatively cheaply for 2 ish years. Shore had generally only played 12 ish minutes with limited opportunities with LA.

That said, I think Shore fits differently and should be moved to the wing as an alternate face off guy.

By comparison, Ryan should play C but as was said he really becomes 4C with special teams play in my head. Monahan, Backlund, Jankowski, Ryan. How much term and $ becomes the big question for me.