"Me Too"

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Right? At what point did anyone in this thread imply that women don't have libidos or "carnal desires" (lol, carnal desires.).

The following posts curiously mention nothing about women. As if it's only men who watch porn, look at people they're attracted to, compliment them on their appearance, or flirt.

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Porn is the definition of objectifying women (and people), and for all intents and purposes, everyone consumes it. I'm not too proud to admit I've consumed it, especially in my younger years, but I've been porn free for a long time now in an effort to change my overall attitude toward women.

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Do you compliment men on their appearance too? If not, why not?

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I know many men, hell I was one, who point out a woman's appearance but would never consider the same for a man. That is a clear double standard based on sexuality. It's the objectification of women even if they are only waitresses...

And really, has anyone here tried to defend slapping asses? Some people are trying to introduce nuance to a subject where clear distinctions aren't as practical as some others here are suggesting.

Virtually every relationship begins with one party going out on a limb and making some kind of signal or overture that they aren't confident will be reciprocated. That's the messy reality of human sexuality. Maybe at some point all dating and mating will happen via an app, and there will no longer be any grey area around intentions. We aren't in that world yet.

Originally Posted by corporatejay

The problem with harassment is that a lot of it comes down to the subjective interpretation of the victim. So, if a single person gets a compliment from another single person who they might also find attractive, that's fine. but if a non-attractive person compliments an attractive person then it's harassment.

This is a prime example of the messiness I'm talking about. The receptiveness of someone to a compliment or overture is largely dependent on how much they like that person making the overture. And of course that can change - I know women who ended up marrying guys who asked them out for years before they said yes.

Most people are far from perfect when it comes to discerning the attitude and intentions of others. There have been cases where I didn't know a woman was interested in me until she sat on my lap and asked why I didn't have a girlfriend. In almost every relationship I've been in, she made the first move, and afterwards asked why I didn't make one sooner (in some cases months sooner). Meanwhile, guys I knew who were more assertive never had any trouble finding dates or hooking up. Did they leave a trail of harassed and abused women behind them? I can't say - though I can say they had long-term relationships and remained on good terms with exes, which usually isn't the sign of selfish pig. And there were clearly a great many women who didn't find their confident approach at all off-putting.

Of course men shouldn't make catcalls or slap women on the ass. But it's hard to imagine a time when men (and women) don't take some risk when it comes to stepping through the threshold between plutonic and romantic. And frankly, does anyone honestly believe women want that - for men never to flirt or make first steps without a clear invitation?

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by snootchiebootchies

I find that question patronizing.

Yes, but is it the bar? The airport? The masseuse? The dentist office?

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Here's a question for you guys to ponder.

If you go to a bar, restaurant, massage, flight attendant, dental hygienist...
And it's a man, are you disappointed?

No, I’m not going to these place with the objective of finding a friend or a romantic partner. I’m going to eat/fly/get my teeth cleaned, I really don’t care who does it so long as they do a good job. I’ve had some of the best service at restaurants from male servers and from all the flying I’ve done, the most memorable flight attendants have been pretty much a spilt between the sexes.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The following posts curiously mention nothing about women. As if it's only men who watch porn, look at people they're attracted to, compliment them on their appearance, or flirt.

I'm going to out on a huge limb here and suggest that the posters in question are probably men and were speaking from personal experience. I know, crazy suggestion.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Maybe at some point all dating and mating will happen via an app, and there will no longer be any grey area around intentions. We aren't in that world yet.

He said, never have discovered Grindr.

Though, Tinder is also pretty much the same. Welcome to 2012. The future.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Here's a question for you guys to ponder.

If you go to a bar, restaurant, massage, flight attendant, dental hygienist...
And it's a man, are you disappointed?

I'm going for a colonoscopy next week.
I'm disappointed in the process, not that the Dr. is a woman.
Did I do that right?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I'm going for a colonoscopy next week.
I'm disappointed in the process, not that the Dr. is a woman.
Did I do that right?

the last thing I want is a female dr or nurse having to deal with my hairy arse, the rest of me is fine but when it comes to that I am way more comfortable with a male

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

He said, never have discovered Grindr.

Though, Tinder is also pretty much the same. Welcome to 2012. The future.

All dating happens on Grindr and Tinder now? Wow, I guess I really am out of touch.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by HockeyIlliterate

Shrug.

I suppose it is much more acceptable to write paragraphs about what a dolt one has been in the past, and how one will now change their ways, all in an effort to show what an enlightened and virtuous person one now is in a mostly anonymous and unaccountable forum, rather than question who it is that has allowed harassment to persist.

Spare me the virtue signaling.

I kind of agree with you on the virtue and shaming of your post. Look, I disagree with about everything you said, and many others here do to. But this whole mob mentality isnt the way to go about it. I'd rather have the dialogue with you and try to help you fill in the gaps and maybe adjust your outlook. Thats what we all need to be doing. Having the discussion, even with those we disagree with. Not everything comes easlity to everyone, and just because someone doesnt "get it" immediately doesnt mean they are part of the overall problem, but it just might take them longer to re-educate and learn.

I don't think you are ill intentioned. What I think you are really missing (and what society collectively misses) is that the quietness and lack of talk about these kinds of subjects is what fosters and environment that lacks accountability to predatory behaviour, and doesnt allow people to speak up without fear.

That's what I think a lot of this victim shaming stuff is missing. Sure, women arent speaking up all the time. But what is the reason for that? I think its pretty obvious that it is due to the culture around them. Fear of repercussion of predators being in power positions that arent held accountable for their actions.

As a society, we need to get away from this. We need to make people feel empowered to speak up when they have been wronged, and make people accountable for their actions. We should hold our society to a higher standard than "well, its their choice to accept cash for a smack on the butt as a waitress". Is that what we want as a society? To force people between choosing between having their needs met or sexual harassment? Is it too much to ask for people to be able to work in an environment where they can both meet standard needs and not face predatory behaviour?

These are basic human rights.

From my point of view, I think you need to seriously research what victims are saying and analyze what you would have done in their shoes. The answer is almost never easy or obvious. No different than racism or the stigma around mental health - society needs to adjust the culture for the better and protection of basic human rights.

[Nufy]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

the last thing I want is a female dr or nurse having to deal with my hairy arse, the rest of me is fine but when it comes to that I am way more comfortable with a male

If they are a professional it really shouldn't matter.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

All dating happens on Grindr and Tinder now? Wow, I guess I really am out of touch.

Pretty much, unless you’re a weird old person. You still have to go to the bar to meet other ones of those.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Pretty much, unless you’re a weird old person. You still have to go to the bar to meet other ones of those.

I thought they were mainly using EstablishedMen.com

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Nufy

If they are a professional it really shouldn't matter.

It doesn't matter, it's just me being embarrassed at how my arse looks like a sasquatch's mouth at my age and not wanting to inflict it on some lass

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Pretty much, unless you’re a weird old person. You still have to go to the bar to meet other ones of those.

plenty of fish

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

It doesn't matter, it's just me being embarrassed at how my arse looks like a sasquatch's mouth at my age and not wanting to inflict it on some lass

You think they look? No, man, they lube up that probe and just start ramming until they find success.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Makarov

It might be an even more powerful campaign if every man who was ever guilty of sexually harassing or even sexually assaulting a woman posted something like #ididit. I'm ashamed to admit that I've done it in the past.

Some of my friends started posting these on FB today. I've seen something between 5-10 now. This was what I put on my wall.

In relation to #metoo, I've been that pushy guy. I like to think it's been very rare, but nevertheless I've crossed the line to harassment, and I am sorry for it. I did not mean any harm, but I have been selfish and inconsiderate and should have known better, especially since I've been harassed myself. Kind of stupid when you think about it.

I think there's two reasons why it's important for us the guilty to talk about this.

First, harassment doesn't just happen. It's done by someone to someone. Guys to guys, guys to girls, girls to guys and girls to girls. Plus other options. Most people probably don't think they're doing it when they're doing it, which is why people should look in the mirror and think about their own behavior. Guys especially, because this isn't one of those things that's pretty equal.

Second, harassment isn't done by some mysterious inhuman monsters. If someone says you've harassed them or someone else, they're not accusing you of being an inhuman monster. They're just telling you to stop doing that dumb sh#t. That's okay. Someone calling you out for harassing is them telling you they think you can do better. Prove them right.

I strongly encourage people to post their own versions. Others have owned up to being pretty terrible people, and those I feel are the most important admissions.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You think they look? No, man, they lube up that probe and just start ramming until they find success.

I had a very pleasant very gay male nurse tell me 'it helps if you relax'
my reply was 'that's easy for you to say' at which he cracked up (thank god).

The last doctor was an Everton fan so we discussed the Premier league for 10 minutes as he filmed the underside of my tonsils, weird experience I am now getting used to.

[EldrickOnIce]

Once in a while I think I have some clarity, and then I come here and read a thread like this, confusing me further.

I think Chidi perfectly sums up my thoughts on the somewhat related part of the subject.

Should I pick a girl as a gesture towards women’s equality, or is that pandering? Or do I think it’s pandering because of my limited male point of view? I’m vexed, Uzo, vexed!

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Itse

Some of my friends started posting these on FB today. I've seen something between 5-10 now. This was what I put on my wall.



I strongly encourage people to post their own versions. Others have owned up to being pretty terrible people, and those I feel are the most important admissions.

I get the sentiment behind this, and it's commendable that you recognize your past inappropriate behaviour, but one of my female friends (who posted a heartbreaking "Me too" story yesterday) wrote this on Facebook today:

HEY, if you're a dude currently experiencing some kind of epiphany about sexual harassment and violence, why not try going through your personal transformation on your own time instead of asking every woman you know for constant advice, reassurance, and congratulations.

The above was met with over 25 "likes" and positive replies (mostly from other women) as of this writing. So maybe we men should just quietly listen to the women telling their stories this time instead of trying to make the conversation about us. There will be many other opportunities to make a mea culpa post in the future.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

That's a fantastic example of what men don't seem to understand.

To be fair, Corsi is all about the possession.