Rob Ford Transgressions Thread

[Resolute 14]

Care to elaborate on that?

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I am of the opinion that the Defamation suit against Nenshi has a better chance of winning than the one against Ford.

Considering that the one against Ford is pretty much a slam dunk, and the one against Nenshi is quite likely to fail, I fail to see how.

[killer_carlson]

I don't think either has much of a chance.

I don't think the one against Ford has a snowball's chance in hell. Especially when every media outlet continues to re-publish the alleged libelous remark without apparent concern for being sued in defamation themselves.

I think the Ford defamation case is done to draw attention to the paper. In addition, there is usually a personality conflict between the parties in defamation cases in my experience as well. I think that is obvious here.

Nenshi's case seems to have one aspect that may survive a summary dismissal, with the added wrinkle of the drama over whether the city should be paying the legal fees. I anticipate an apology in the Nenshi case; I do not anticipate one in the Ford case.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I don't think either has much of a chance.

I don't think the one against Ford has a snowball's chance in hell. Especially when every media outlet continues to re-publish the alleged libelous remark without apparent concern for being sued in defamation themselves.

Huh? That's really not how libel works; actually, it's pretty-much backwards. Every republication of the offending statement can actually increase damage against the defendant, particularly if the defendant agreed to the original publication of the statement, which he arguably did by saying it on a TV interview, which he agreed to go on, where he was not under duress. He intended the remarks for widespread public consumption, so he is entirely responsible, regardless of who disseminates the results. (It's really curious that you don't talk about the fact that newspapers were eager to publish Nenshi's comments... How do you see those aspects of the cases as different from one-another?)

In the Hollingers/Black libel case, the fact that Hollingers' had issued the statement in a press release thus made it fair game to be reported on by newspapers, and this republication was further damaging to Hollingers'. The republications make it more likely, not less, that the case is successful. As with the Conrad Black case, there's no requirement on the plaintiff to go after every source that republishes the remark.

The responsible communication defense is relatively new but makes it extremely difficult to go after media in Canada anyway. It would be easy for the newspapers involved to make the claim that they were acting under responsible communication. The idea that a newspaper can commit libel by repeating a libelous remark is gone, unless there's a suggestion that they acted with malice.
Same reason the Furlong case in BC dropped the suit against the Georgia Strait. It would be impossible to prove that they acted with malice or otherwise exeeded the bounds of the responsible communication defense.

[Daradon]

^^^ Was going to quote that part too, but you pretty much hit on everything I was going to and more.

Yeah, it's not a good example of why the suit may not be successful.

[Devils'Advocate]

Looks like Ford still has support from within the federal Conservatives. Our Finance minister is going to bat for him:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jaso...erty-1.2463984

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Looks like Ford still has support from within the federal Conservatives. Our Finance minister is going to bat for him:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jaso...erty-1.2463984

More than just the Finance minister apparently...

Bitter divisions inside Stephen Harper's cabinet over Toronto Mayor Rob Ford recently erupted on the floor of the House of Commons and triggered a profane battle between two of the prime minister's most powerful ministers.

In a voice loud enough for several of their cabinet colleagues to hear, Flaherty told Kenney to "shut the f--k up" about Ford.

Kenney responded angrily in kind, and although the two men were separated by four other ministers, alarmed caucus colleagues, who requested anonymity, were concerned the bilious debate might escalate beyond their control.


"I thought they might come to blows," said one MP who was not authorized to speak publicly about the incident.


"It made other caucus members feel awkward," the MP said. "Jim was very emotional and he is very protective of Ford."

Kenney's comments about Ford also upset members of the Conservatives' Greater Toronto Caucus, which Flaherty chairs.


Sources tell CBC News that some Greater Toronto Area caucus members resented Kenney's comments because they flew in the face of strict instructions to avoid commenting on the Rob Ford scandal because of the Toronto mayor's enduring popularity in some key federal ridings.


"The MPs in the GTA had worked hard to maintain their cool on the subject," said one caucus source, "and along comes Kenney and undermines them."

There have been other examples of escalating tension between caucus members spilling onto the floor of the House.


This past week, Conservative MP Kyle Seeback apologized for calling fellow Conservative Brad Butt a "bitch" during a loud exchange on the Commons floor.

[Daradon]

This party is falling apart!

[Cole436]

Kenny may be a clown, but I'm glad he's taken a stand against this national embarrassment.

[BloodFetish]

Meanwhile, back in the center of the universe...

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2...36276-qmi.html

Unbelievable.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Looks like Ford still has support from within the federal Conservatives. Our Finance minister is going to bat for him:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jaso...erty-1.2463984

I have ZERO sympathy for Rob Ford - he's clearly a very, very, very troubled person that is living outside the realm of reality. I wish him all the best but definitely consider him to be a national embarrassment.

I do however sympathize with Jim Flaherty. He's clearly trying to do right and be supportive of his friends, but is undoubtedly handcuffed by the realities of being in public life. This is a guy who came to tears at a public press conference in the days following Ford's first round of admissions. It's not political for him, it is very much a personal matter and must be incredibly difficult.

A good friend of mine is self-destructive as well, albeit not to Rob Ford's level. If someone were to publicly admonish this friend for his weaknesses, I would be very much inclined put that person in their place. It isn't that I agree with my friend's choices (we all push and hope for changes/improvements) but he is fundamentally good and deserves the support of his friends.

At the end of the day, I say good on Flaherty for supporting his friend at the most difficult of times. Rob Ford should feel shame for putting him in the position where he has to do so, but Flaherty shouldn't be admonished for standing by his friends.

"Yes, of course he's my friend. You don't have a friend one day and not a friend the next day. What kind of person is that," Flaherty said.

[Devils'Advocate]

Seriously?

If someone publicly called on your friend to step down as mayor of a large city for their drug use, alcoholism and other destructive behaviours….. you would put them in their place?

I think if Jim Flaherty was really a friend *HE* would be the one telling Rob Ford to step down as mayor!

[octothorp]

Now YOU can help pay Rob Ford's legal bills.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/#!/content/1.2464515/

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Now YOU can help pay Rob Ford's legal bills.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/#!/content/1.2464515/

The ROC should donate so the sideshow continues.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Seriously?

If someone publicly called on your friend to step down as mayor of a large city for their drug use, alcoholism and other destructive behaviours….. you would put them in their place?

I think if Jim Flaherty was really a friend *HE* would be the one telling Rob Ford to step down as mayor!

Once is fine, but after that it just comes across as nagging. Is anything new being accomplished at this point by Kenney?

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Seriously?

If someone publicly called on your friend to step down as mayor of a large city for their drug use, alcoholism and other destructive behaviours….. you would put them in their place?

I think if Jim Flaherty was really a friend *HE* would be the one telling Rob Ford to step down as mayor!

The specific situation is hard to comprehend (my friend is a drunk/addict and a national tragedy in a position of political power) but in general I appreciate the macro here, a person doing his best to support a friend in need despite the heavy price of doing so.

Like I said, it's a particularly awkward situation because everyone is involved in public life, but that doesn't negate the responsibility to provide support and understanding. And I highly doubt that the words between Flaherty and Kenney were ever intended to be public, although it would be foolish to think that they wouldn't become known.

I would hope that Flaherty is using his influence as a friend to push Ford towards getting his life together (rehab/counseling, etc) but do you really think that Ford is going to benefit from having his friends publicly cut bait and leave him drifting alone in his misery? That sounds like a sure fire recipe for more antics and negative behavior. I would think that remaining close to Ford provides a greater opportunity to help him than publicly admonishing him and walking away.

To reiterate what I said earlier - I have zero sympathy for Ford at this point. I absolutely believe he should step down (at the very least take an extended leave while he gets help). Please don't confuse my thoughts on Ford with my thoughts on Flaherty. We don't know what Flaherty is doing/saying privately to try and help Ford. I'd be disappointed if his support consists of "Don't worry Rob, you're a swell guy, keep up the good work" but I simply can't fathom that being the case.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Once is fine, but after that it just comes across as nagging. Is anything new being accomplished at this point by Kenney?

Ya, I have mixed feelings about Kenney's comments. I really don't think he's trying to score easy political points by jumping on the bandwagon per se.

I think he was right to call for Ford to step down, temporarily or permanently, but you're right to question the value/purpose or continually doing so.

It's a fine line....we need to show Ford that the public (people, governments) generally believe he should be stepping aside to get help all while maintaining an olive branch and a hand of support to try and help him work through his demons.

[You Need a Thneed]

http://m.thestar.com/#!/gta/rob-ford...d4b32faa20847a

[FireFly]

Well that certainly clears that up.

[killer_carlson]

wow. Colour me surprised. Interesting choice of language in the apology at times.