Do you think the Calgary Flames are tanking?

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The big difference between that team and the Flames is that Bob Hartley had his players giving everything they had. If that continues, nobody can accuse the team of tanking. Will they go into the tank if things go sour this season? Maybe. But this is not the time to accuse them, because it hasn't happened yet.

At least this year they know what to do if the team starts going south. They just have to get some of the guys to beat the crap out of Vancouver.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Rerun

True but is Hiller really an upgrade over Ramo? Hiller had a better GAA at 2.48 than Ramo's 2.65 but he also played on a much better team. They both had identical Save %'s at .911

I think we are kind of treading water in the goal tending dept. We didn't get worse but we didn't get much better.

Hiller didn't replace Ramo, he replaced Berra. This is a huge direct upgrade which may also push Ramo to be better.

As has been mentioned numerous times, the best way to tank would be maintaining subpar goaltending.

[gvitaly]

Yes.
The Flames on the ice will be trying to win every game, which is the opposite of tanking. The Flames off the ice, on the other hand, are looking and/or expecting to lose.

• The Flames have the lowest payroll in the league
• The Flame are expected to be a bottom 5 team for a reason
• The signings made during the offseason
  • No real difference makers(Hiller is open for debate)
  • The players brought in are more distractions and place holders.
    • Short contracts
    • Are not meant to be a part of the core of this team.
    • Players that can distract fans from losses using hits and fights**
• The players themselves do not expect to makes the playoffs
• The future is the priority for management over the present

You might say that all those define a rebuild instead of tanking, it is just a matter of opinion. The main reason I call it tanking is because this team will need to overachieve to finish higher than a bottom 5 spot.


**I understand that being truculent is a part of hockey, and will be a huge part of the Flames identity. I just hope it will be a supplement to winning and not a substitute of it.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

and that "carefully planned manner" certainly looks to include a top 5 draft pick next summer.

If you want to call it "smart managing", which it is - then that's fine. But we're also very clearly looking for a high draft pick in next year's draft, which is what I'd categorize as "tanking", at least by management. It's not a negative though. There simply is no other smart plan of attack at this stage for our hockey team. You can't build a winner via free agency, we don't have a deep enough pool of NHL-ready prospects to push the team into the playoffs.

It is what it is. They could have gone out and overpaid mid-level talent which could have made us a bubble team, but that's poor management.

excellent post

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Hiller didn't replace Ramo, he replaced Berra. This is a huge direct upgrade which may also push Ramo to be better.

As has been mentioned numerous times, the best way to tank would be maintaining subpar goaltending.

Like when the Flames tried to tank last year with Ortio and MacDonald last March and April...

[SofaProfessor]

I like how the definition of "tanking" is, according to some, not signing mid and top tier free agents to big contracts in order to make yourself a bubble team. Apparently you're supposed to spend to the cap every year and hope to squeak into the playoffs, future be damned.

Fact is that free agents aren't coming to Calgary for pennies these days. Management would have to dole out a ton of money over a few years to attract anyone. That puts the team in bad shape a few years down the road.

Good, forward thinking management should not be called tanking. I can only imagine what this board would be saying if Treliving had whipped out the cheque book and signed a bunch of guys to huge contracts in the offseason to try and be competitive right now. I remember the blow up there was over the Engelland contract. You can't please everyone... Sign a free agent to a big deal and they hate you. Don't sign enough free agents and you're tanking.

[Stay Golden]

They are not tanking. The Flames are in 2nd year of a rebuild and are looking to the future around guys Like Monahan, Brody,
Colburne, Johhny G, lead by Gio. Expect a shift next offseason with a few FA's but it will depend on if they move up to middle of the standings. JMO.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Like when the Flames tried to tank last year with Ortio and MacDonald last March and April...

Berra traded, Ramo injured.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Hiller didn't replace Ramo, he replaced Berra. This is a huge direct upgrade which may also push Ramo to be better.

I know that. And if Berra was still here Ramo would be the #1 goalie and play the vast majority of the games (just like Kipper did for years).

Instead now we have two goalies with equal talent. How is that a huge upgrade? Its only a huge upgrade if you pick up a goalie that's better than your current #1.

Right now its just a minor upgrade.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Rerun

True but is Hiller really an upgrade over Ramo?

Is that even relevant? Ramo is still here. The problem is that he's not going to play every game. For the first half of last season, when Ramo wasn't in net, you could pretty much write the L on the schedule in ink.

I think we are kind of treading water in the goal tending dept. We didn't get worse but we didn't get much better.

Ramo + Hiller > Ramo + Ortio (at this point)
Ramo + Hiller >> Ramo + Berra
Ramo + Hiller >>> Ramo + the sad shell of a goalie that used to be Joey MacDonald.

I don't know how you can say this is not an improvement.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I know that. And if Berra was still here Ramo would be the #1 goalie and play the vast majority of the games (just like Kipper did for years).

Kiprusoff was a freak of nature. There aren't five goalies in the league who can handle that kind of workload.

Normally, you can figure that your backup will need to play at least 20 games per year; more if the starter is ever injured.

[Stay Golden]

If the Flames were truly tanking they would have traded Ramo instead of Berra. Not signed FA Hiller and instead promoted Ortio for this season.

[Vinny01]

The Flames are not tanking but they definitely jumped off the treadmill of mediocrity with hopes of building from within that results in a few low finally she's and top picks. The flames committed in 2013 and ended up with the 6th pick and a big building block. Last offseason they did not do much and were expected to be the worst team in the league. They played hard and were competitive winning games against some elite teams like Chicago and LA. They still finished 4th last and added another key building block.

They way the Flames have committed to build from within draft picks are off the table in trades. Young prospects are also off limits for the most part. The only real option the team has to get better is free agency and there is not a long line waiting to come to calgary. Grossly overpaying for other UFA's sets up a future cap nightmare.

This year the flames got a winger who wanted to come here in Raymond. He adds speed that we need and provides some scoring. They got Hiller as he is a goalie looking for an opportunity and he sees Calgary as a place he can start. Engellend clearly came here for the money. The team did lose Cammalleri who was the cloest player this team had to a first liner. There is not much reason to think this years team will be any better than they were last year. The result is another high pick and this draft happens to have franchise changing prospects available in the top 2-3.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I know that. And if Berra was still here Ramo would be the #1 goalie and play the vast majority of the games (just like Kipper did for years).

Instead now we have two goalies with equal talent. How is that a huge upgrade? Its only a huge upgrade if you pick up a goalie that's better than your current #1.

Right now its just a minor upgrade.

Wow.

And if Ramo gets hurt?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by SofaProfessor

I like how the definition of "tanking" is, according to some, not signing mid and top tier free agents to big contracts in order to make yourself a bubble team. Apparently you're supposed to spend to the cap every year and hope to squeak into the playoffs, future be damned.

Fact is that free agents aren't coming to Calgary for pennies these days. Management would have to dole out a ton of money over a few years to attract anyone. That puts the team in bad shape a few years down the road.

Good, forward thinking management should not be called tanking. I can only imagine what this board would be saying if Treliving had whipped out the cheque book and signed a bunch of guys to huge contracts in the offseason to try and be competitive right now. I remember the blow up there was over the Engelland contract. You can't please everyone... Sign a free agent to a big deal and they hate you. Don't sign enough free agents and you're tanking.

People don't say that's what you are supposed to do... people say that it is what is happening. It is the logical thing to do for a team in the position of the Flames. The only question is do we call it tanking?

You are referring to what I consider an extreme case of tanking. A case where the players on the ice either stop caring about losing or play to lose. However, does it only happen when you start having a losing culture in your dressing room?

If the Flames wanted they could've easily iced a better lineup this season, would it have been a good decision? Probably not. In my eyes the management of the Flames sacrifices points this season in order to build a better team in the future. It seems perfectly reasonable to me. Also, I don't see it as a bad thing, but are you sure that tanking has to be? Circus up north excluded.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

People don't say that's what you are supposed to do... people say that it is what is happening. It is the logical thing to do for a team in the position of the Flames. The only question is do we call it tanking?

You are referring to what I consider an extreme case of tanking. A case where the players on the ice either stop caring about losing or play to lose. However, does it only happen when you start having a losing culture in your dressing room?

If the Flames wanted they could've easily iced a better lineup this season, would it have been a good decision? Probably not. In my eyes the management of the Flames sacrifices points this season in order to build a better team in the future. It seems perfectly reasonable to me. Also, I don't see it as a bad thing, but are you sure that tanking has to be? Circus up north excluded.

Go on...

[Nme-Territory]

I think people are mistaking prioritizing team development over final standings for trying to finish poorly. Both approaches may end up with the same result but the mentality and process are much different.

[mhsyyc]

It would be just as easy to argue the team was tanking if it had Ferland, Jooris and Baertschi starting on opening night. Regardless of how popular or unpopular the personnel decisions in the last two days have been we're a couple of years away from any reasonable on ice success.

The recent assignments down to the AHL might be a bad for PR in the eyes of some but will have little to no impact on the win/loss columns.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No they aren't tanking.

They are managing with a greater emphasis on long-term decisions.

That definitely results in a worse team this year than they might have f they were focused more on short term decisions (i.e. go after a guy like Boychuk).

But they aren't tanking.

Now if they trade Giordano at the deadline...

If trading Giordano at the deadline will net them a fabulous return going into one of the potentially best draft classes in years, how would it not be emphasizing long-term decisions as well?

[Nme-Territory]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

If trading Giordano at the deadline will net them a fabulous return going into one of the potentially best draft classes in years, how would it not be emphasizing long-term decisions as well?

Look in any thread here and you'll see comments about how the culture of a team is vital to its success. You can have great players but if there isn't solid leadership or vets leading by example, your younger players will suffer the consequences.

Did you really expect a different answer here?

Gio seems to be the ideal captain for the team at this time. Sure, trade him if you feel the opportunity granted is too good to pass up... everyone has a price. But you've gotta make sure someone is there to fill the void... and I don't think the franchise currently has someone to do that.