I don't know if I should bother, but that increase in profits is not based on grocery. It's based on everything else that you buy in these stores now (that massive section of clothes/housewares/electronic/junk in a Superstore, for example). The margins on food are notably small, as numerous people in this thread have tried to explain to you.
And frankly, I question this graph. When I look at the margins for Loblaws for example, the gross margin is up by about 1% and the net margin is almost flat. Revenues are up, but that's inflation because the margins aren't expanding.
I don’t know how accurate the graph is but I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that any increase is based solely or even primarily on non-grocery product sales. Sobeys, Safeway, Nofrills, Freshco, etc offer very little selection of non-grocery products.
Reported profit margins can also be manipulated based on investments and share buybacks, etc. I think it’d be a bit naive to assume that these companies are unintentionally running on such tight margins as their investors would probably take their money elsewhere if that were the case. When a grocery retailer invests $100M into building new stores or any other forms of expansion to their business those costs will come out of the overall profit, but the value of those fixed assets they acquired as part of their expansion do not show up as income.
I don’t know how accurate the graph is but I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that any increase is based solely or even primarily on non-grocery product sales. Sobeys, Safeway, Nofrills, Freshco, etc offer very little selection of non-grocery products.
Reported profit margins can also be manipulated based on investments and share buybacks, etc. I think it’d be a bit naive to assume that these companies are unintentionally running on such tight margins as their investors would probably take their money elsewhere if that were the case. When a grocery retailer invests $100M into building new stores or any other forms of expansion to their business those costs will come out of the overall profit, but the value of those fixed assets they acquired as part of their expansion do not show up as income.
No, share buybacks do not impact profit margins. Share buybacks will impact earnings per share, and that is not the same thing, and not what I'm talking about.
I think what is naive, is that there are plenty of people who are explaining that the margins in grocery are not as high as the public grocery store supporters seem to imply. And now, you toss up the red herring of building new properties as though this is somehow part of the COGS, and imply that rather than report income they're just building new stores. Well, in December 2020 they had 2431 stores and at the end of 2024 they were at 2455. It's quite a take!
So, here's the pure facts. Profit margins are not wildly higher than they were pre-covid. They went from 29.66 to 31.51, which is a little under 2% growth from 2019 through 2024. Hardly egregious. Net profit margin rocketed up to an eye-watering 3.56% through 2024. Surely you can't think that this is gouging?
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Also capital investments like new store construction don't come out of income because they're, well, capital.
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Originally Posted by Wolven
Is that more what you are hoping for?
I was more hoping for a refreshing change of direction for the NDP to a revitalized party that could have some relevance on the national stage by pursuing practical, realistic objectives that would help Canadians who aren't well served by the two major parties, but I guess it's just still going to be this sort of thing, isn't it.
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I don’t know how accurate the graph is but I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that any increase is based solely or even primarily on non-grocery product sales. Sobeys, Safeway, Nofrills, Freshco, etc offer very little selection of non-grocery products.
Reported profit margins can also be manipulated based on investments and share buybacks, etc. I think it’d be a bit naive to assume that these companies are unintentionally running on such tight margins as their investors would probably take their money elsewhere if that were the case. When a grocery retailer invests $100M into building new stores or any other forms of expansion to their business those costs will come out of the overall profit, but the value of those fixed assets they acquired as part of their expansion do not show up as income.
The bolded is 100% false. Reported profit margins take profits and revenues, that's it. Share buybacks and investments affect neither.
And nobody thinks they are intentionally running on tight margins - they're running on the highest margins they can get given their competitive position. Which is why the idea of a government grocer is asinine.
The problem with food inflation lately is mostly not a grocer issue, so mucking around with the grocery system isn't likely to fix it.
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Public discourse around things like grocery pricing is difficult because peoples’ intuitions tell them if a price feels high and unfair, it must be because the seller is making lots of profit. The notion that the price is high but profit is low feels wrong. And pointing out factors like all the different inputs costs introduces unwelcome complexity.
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If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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I think what is naive, is that there are plenty of people who are explaining that the margins in grocery are not as high as the public grocery store supporters seem to imply. And now, you toss up the red herring of building new properties as though this is somehow part of the COGS, and imply that rather than report income they're just building new stores. Well, in December 2020 they had 2431 stores and at the end of 2024 they were at 2455. It's quite a take!
This was something I'd thought of, but frankly didn't care enough to look into... There are a lot more Canadians now than there were 5 years ago and (it feels like) barely any more grocers... Your stats confirmed my thought. Higher same-store sales will have a big impact on profit, as the grocer isn't incurring additional expenses associated with having more stores such as labour...
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Would you join the party to vote for him?
If he were the leader, would you vote for the NDP in a general election?
I don't join parties. And the federal NDP as it currently stands today is the furthest ideologically to my own of major parties, with distinct non starters where they would actively destroy my livelihood in lieu of self-gratifying grandstanding. I am very glad to see the Alberta NDP (a party I do support) work to cut ties to the severely out of touch federal NDP and need to go further. Rob Ashton would need to do a complete 180 with the party as Carney has effectively done with the Liberals, but I can't see the NDP elites ever allowing that.
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My hot take is that this race is likely to come down to Rob v. Avi and I think either way you are upgrading on Singh (who was already an upgrade on Muclair). I am super curious how Rob's platform will look as he starts to release it.
Avi Lewis is most certainly not an upgrade on Singh. Lewis is the original Singh before Singh could even get started on his champagne socialism campaign. Singh for all his warts is incredibly charismatic and a strong speaker. The problem is the direction he led the NDP and sacrificing the party's fortunes to give himself a feather in the cap. Singh may have destroyed the party while being the face of it, but someone like Lewis has done more irreparable harm than anyone else.
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Most of the criticism I am hearing from the guys who hate Avi in this thread is fluffy. A lot of focus on what he drinks which drowns out the few points about his policy proposals. To me, if Avi were to deliver electoral reform, I could forgive him for enjoying Lattes over black cups of coffee. However, I admit I have a lot more I need to learn about him as I wasn't aware of his opinion of the A-NDP.
Then, when I see the american-owned national post attacking Avi, it actually makes me think higher of him. The speed in which they are trying to link Avi to Singh is almost as fast as they moved to make Carney into the same person as Trudeau. It makes me wonder why they would bother to take the time to attack him and none of the other NDP leadership candidates.
Q: When the manifesto was released in the middle of last fall’s election, critics branded it “utopian” and “anti-capitalist.” Were you surprised by the response?
A: We weren’t surprised in the slightest that pre-paleolithic climate-denying curmudgeons like Rex Murphy and Conrad Black would seize upon our radical and idealistic vision with glee. We know this is an ideological battle. What we did misjudge was how this would be used against the NDP. That was certainly not our intent. Maybe we were a bit naive. People have said it’s the NDP’s left flank attacking Mulcair. That’s not true, but we lost control of that narrative.
Q: It was pitched as non-partisan, but it does come from the left. Did you give Tom Mulcair or his people any input, or at least a heads up?
A: Absolutely not. They were in the middle of running an election campaign and we were a broad group of Canadians who felt that the absence of climate as a central issue, and the centrist, cautious tone of the campaign, was a massive disconnect from the way Canadians felt. We hoped to reach people and build some urgency for more ambitious policy. Indeed, we got 20,000 signatures in 10 days.
Q: You mentioned Alberta. Rachel Notley calls the manifesto “naïve and tone deaf,” while her environment minister says it’s a “betrayal.” Is there a way to bridge that gap?
A: I think what we’re seeing is more a reflection of Alberta politics than a schism on the left. Their gusto in attacking the manifesto suggests that it’s practical for them to do so at this moment. But there might be a danger in carrying it too far. Most of what’s in the document is already NDP policy. There’s one demand out of 15—that there be no new fossil fuel infrastructure—that has been a grenade. We get it: Alberta politics is brutal. It’s an oil province, and the government feels it needs a new pipeline. But there were lots of Albertans in the room when the Leap Manifesto was born. And there are many different economic interests in Alberta and Canada. The science says we’re past the point where we need to get off fossil fuels and our political debates are stuck in the 1970s.
“We do not believe that it was a particularly thoughtful document. We believe that it was naïve,” Notley said. “We believe that it was ill-considered and, quite frankly, very tone-deaf to the economic realities that are being experienced in Alberta.”
He purposely sabotaged the NDP during the 2015 election, an election that prior to his Leap Manifesto release under Mulcair was leading the polls and slight favourite to become the governing party of Canada (let that sink in), solely because he felt the NDP was too far centrist in its platform and wanted to blow it wide open for the far left populists elements within the party to take back the party. The Leap Manifesto disaster was a significant factor into why the NDP fell all the way to under 18% by election day. It directly alienated Canadians and regions.
Since Avi Lewis has played his hand and his far left clique booted Mulcair out of the party, the NDP went from a party that was polling as high as 40% in late 2015 (yet that high) to 5% today. He also deliberately antagonized the Alberta NDP at at time when they were making headways in progress within Alberta, at a time when the province oil royalty review was a hot topic. He's been significantly criticized even within his own party and for very valid reasons. The Alberta NDP dared to actually rationalize oil royalties (deeming them adequate after review), and Notley was shunned and demonized by the NDP elitists
You have presented your case as to why you specifically would want Avi Lewis as your leader while simultaneously admitted you have been woefully underinformed about him (while resorting to bash any of his critics). But you have made an incredibly poor job in selling why Canadians as a whole would ever want to have someone like that be leader and why the NDP deserved better then the 5% they now are polling at if they go out and chose someone like him.
That was a good time. The thought that a group of presumably sane people in boardroom somewhere believed that was a good idea is absolutely mind-boggling.
I imagine they were too busy weaving their own clothes and cobbling their own shoes to participate in actual society.
Hows that going for them these days?
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All you would need to do is add a minor tweak to say that building a non-residential public grocer would be covered 100% instead of 'up to 75%'. That is not a heavy lift or complex integration but it is a simple opportunity to support a new program with an existing program.
Building a building is by far the easiest part. The logistics for an efficient supply chain is a very different story. Especially when dealing with perishable+cold+frozen goods sourced from all over the world.
It blows my mind that most frozen pizzas I buy seem to come from Germany.
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No, share buybacks do not impact profit margins. Share buybacks will impact earnings per share, and that is not the same thing, and not what I'm talking about.
Fair enough if you don’t want to take that into consideration but it factors into where the money ends up.
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I think what is naive, is that there are plenty of people who are explaining that the margins in grocery are not as high as the public grocery store supporters seem to imply.
Are you implying that I’m in favour of public grocery stores?
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And now, you toss up the red herring of building new properties as though this is somehow part of the COGS, and imply that rather than report income they're just building new stores. Well, in December 2020 they had 2431 stores and at the end of 2024 they were at 2455. It's quite a take!
I don’t see how you can’t consider that to be a relevant factor when looking at the big picture of how investors make money. We can discuss the unnecessary spending and waste that occurs in these businesses which obviously will get passed along to the customers if you’d like.
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So, here's the pure facts. Profit margins are not wildly higher than they were pre-covid. They went from 29.66 to 31.51, which is a little under 2% growth from 2019 through 2024. Hardly egregious. Net profit margin rocketed up to an eye-watering 3.56% through 2024. Surely you can't think that this is gouging?
Gouging is a little subjective but the fact of the matter is that their revenues are significantly higher and the profit margins have increased. So it’s hard not to see that and not reach the conclusion that they’re making more off of selling the same goods than they did previously.
I imagine they were too busy weaving their own clothes and cobbling their own shoes to participate in actual society.
Hows that going for them these days?
Careful there or you might be called a pre-paleolithic climate-denying curmudgeon by the enlightened - or merely called a Patron saint of the corporate welfare bums.
The way Lewis phrases it makes Notley of all people sound like a raging UCP far right corporatist just for trying to move oil by rail and trying to find a stop gap solution in lieu of pipelines...
With friends like Lewis in the party, who needs enemies?
Again, this is who the NDP wants to lead its party?
Fair enough if you don’t want to take that into consideration but it factors into where the money ends up.
Are you implying that I’m in favour of public grocery stores?
I don’t see how you can’t consider that to be a relevant factor when looking at the big picture of how investors make money. We can discuss the unnecessary spending and waste that occurs in these businesses which obviously will get passed along to the customers if you’d like.
Gouging is a little subjective but the fact of the matter is that their revenues are significantly higher and the profit margins have increased. So it’s hard not to see that and not reach the conclusion that they’re making more off of selling the same goods than they did previously.
I’m not going through all your points here, so apologies in advance. But of course I’m not taking share buybacks into account for the point about margins. They have nothing to do with them. There’s nothing to take into account.
I just think the underlying issue here is that you don’t want to hear the truth. I gave you the numbers, and you just don’t accept that they’re legitimate.
Norway has a $1 Trillion by nationalizing its resources....so... just saying...That could be cool.
I don't know why we would argue about grocers when we have the globes greatest gouger within our borders. Might as well use it for ourselves. Any companies doing any gouging in the food industry are producers, not the distributors. Loblaws didn't shrink the Snickers bar.
I’m not going through all your points here, so apologies in advance. But of course I’m not taking share buybacks into account for the point about margins. They have nothing to do with them. There’s nothing to take into account.
That’s fair if you prefer to only take a surface level look at things.
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I just think the underlying issue here is that you don’t want to hear the truth. I gave you the numbers, and you just don’t accept that they’re legitimate.
I never said your numbers weren’t legitimate. They’re from publicly released documents reports. You’re just preferring to present them in a manner that makes it look like grocers aren’t doing as well as they are and I disagree with that. You’re welcome to continue doing so, and whether you agree or disagree I’ll continue to bring up reasons why people should question the overall picture that data paints. If you want to cry about it that’s fine, I’ve never stopped you from whining before. That being said, there’s no need to throw out ridiculous allegations that I’ve in some way accused you of presenting illegitimate numbers.
Oh man, can you imagine the heads that would explode if the federal government was going to try to use resource money to build a sovereign wealth fund? Resources are under the purview of the provinces, but floating some idea around that would be both hilarious, and crater the NDP in Alberta forevermore.
That’s fair if you prefer to only take a surface level look at things.
I never said your numbers weren’t legitimate. They’re from publicly released documents reports. You’re just preferring to present them in a manner that makes it look like grocers aren’t doing as well as they are and I disagree with that. You’re welcome to continue doing so, and whether you agree or disagree I’ll continue to bring up reasons why people should question the overall picture that data paints. If you want to cry about it that’s fine, I’ve never stopped you from whining before. That being said, there’s no need to throw out ridiculous allegations that I’ve in some way accused you of presenting illegitimate numbers.
It’s like taking to a wall. I’m not taking a surface level look at things. Share buybacks do not influence profit margins. That’s it. There no debate here, and it doesn’t matter how deep you dig. They’re just unrelated.
And as usual, you resort to personal attacks and trying to desperately distract from the facts that conflict with your narrative.
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It’s like taking to a wall. I’m not taking a surface level look at things. Share buybacks do not influence profit margins. That’s it. There no debate here, and it doesn’t matter how deep you dig. They’re just unrelated.
Yeah I acknowledged that already. Do you want me to apologize for not putting enough effort into a post on a message board?
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And as usual, you resort to personal attacks and trying to desperately distract from the facts that conflict with your narrative.
Are you going to be ok Slava?
I think whine a lot, it is what it is. Doesn’t mean I’m right, or that I’m wrong in understating how much you do. You may want to consider trying to take things a little less personally. Your posts are actually entertaining for me, but they do at times provide some useful insight. What’s more entertaining for me though is when someone who loves to take pot shots at other posters gets bent out of shape over a nothing burger “personal attack” and tries to use it as a failed means to take the high road after trying to isolate a single comment I made and (attempt) to criticize me for it.
Yeah I acknowledged that already. Do you want me to apologize for not putting enough effort into a post on a message board?
Are you going to be ok Slava?
I think whine a lot, it is what it is. Doesn’t mean I’m right, or that I’m wrong in understating how much you do. You may want to consider trying to take things a little less personally. Your posts are actually entertaining for me, but they do at times provide some useful insight. What’s more entertaining for me though is when someone who loves to take pot shots at other posters gets bent out of shape over a nothing burger “personal attack” and tries to use it as a failed means to take the high road after trying to isolate a single comment I made and (attempt) to criticize me for it.
That’s a lot of words that could have been saved by just admitting you have no idea what you are talking about.
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