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Old 12-04-2017, 11:58 AM   #121
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Overall I think Treliving's asset management has been pretty poor.

Letting Byron go for nothing was bad. Baertschi was bad (although not 100% on Treliving). The Brouwer signing was bad. And the Hamonic deal is looking pretty awful.

On the bright side there's Hamilton and Smith. And the fact he didn't sign Elliott to a fat, long-term albatross of a contract.
Treliving has also signed the core of this team long term and not one player makes $7M which is solid asset management considering we have an Art Toss candidate and 2 Dmen they finished in the top 10 Norris votes last year.

His management of Glencross, Hudler, Russell was also fantastic.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:03 PM   #122
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A lot of these players in their own ways have contributed to us not being where we need to be. We’re still pay for Mason Raymond by the way so he’s still negatively effecting the team. Hiller ruined our 15-16 season with his .879 sv%. Deciding to keep Bollig cost us Paul Byon whose been unreal for the Canadiens. Shinkaruk cost us a servicable NHLer whose team is currently ahead of us in standings right now. Hamonic and Lazar cost this team a potentially unprotected 1st round lottery pick along with 3 x 2nd round picks. Lack’s performance speaks for itself and Troy Brouwer may be the worst UFA signing in franchise history. That’s a lot of screw ups in a short period of time that doesn’t give me much confidence in upper management going forward.
The last part of your post was unnecessary hyperbole, but the above has a lot of truth in it. You also left out Elliott, who singlehandedly sank our latest playoff appeareance and also cost us a 2nd round pick. You can argue all you want that it seemed a fine trade at the time, but I'm more of a results oriented guy.

That said there are a lot of successess too. Versteeg was good for his first season, Chiasson had a solid season here, Frolik has been everything we could have hoped for, Smith is finally the goalie we've wanted, Jagr was a good choice, Stone was a good acquisition, Hamilton I think is a very good acquisition even if he's not playing up to his potential right now.

Treliving is an active GM that likes to make moves, and that's going to result in a lot of misses on top of a lot of hits. He also seems to me like a guy that's good at learning from his mistakes. (I kind of expect him to be the kind of guy that does a full analysis of trades after the fact to evaluate what factors should have been considered more etc.)

I do kind of hope the organization gets a coach that's more like Sutter than Gulutzan; someone less of a process guy and more a results guy.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:15 PM   #123
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The last part of your post was unnecessary hyperbole, but the above has a lot of truth in it. You also left out Elliott, who singlehandedly sank our latest playoff appeareance and also cost us a 2nd round pick. You can argue all you want that it seemed a fine trade at the time, but I'm more of a results oriented guy.

That said there are a lot of successess too. Versteeg was good for his first season, Chiasson had a solid season here, Frolik has been everything we could have hoped for, Smith is finally the goalie we've wanted, Jagr was a good choice, Stone was a good acquisition, Hamilton I think is a very good acquisition even if he's not playing up to his potential right now.

Treliving is an active GM that likes to make moves, and that's going to result in a lot of misses on top of a lot of hits. He also seems to me like a guy that's good at learning from his mistakes. (I kind of expect him to be the kind of guy that does a full analysis of trades after the fact to evaluate what factors should have been considered more etc.)

I do kind of hope the organization gets a coach that's more like Sutter than Gulutzan; someone less of a process guy and more a results guy.
The Hamilton trade was just fine. He cost a first, but you'd draft him at number 15 any day of the week. The 15th turned into Senyshyn, but the other players around him aside from Barzal and the much later Boeser pick aren't any screaming success stories) Engelland was a Treliving UFA signing that, while maybe a little too pricey, was overall a positive. Hudler for Tyler Parsons seems to be a good move.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:15 PM   #124
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The smartest GMs need to go on vacation July 1st rather than look at any Free Agents over age 30. BT seemed to do that this summer for the first time.

The only FAs that are worth a look are those entering Free Agency for the first time at around the 26 to 28 years old range where you might still catch them in for part of their prime if the term is not too long. Frolik at 27 years old was a great example.
It's remarkable how many NHL GMs haven't learned this lesson. They're not dumb people, so there's gotta be irrational factors clouding their judgement. Maybe it's holding onto traditional notion of the 30-something veteran being a valuable element on a roster. Maybe it's just the ingrained conservatism of hockey culture, where change is only reluctantly and grudgingly acknowledged. But it's definitely an area where the younger, more analytics oriented members of management teams need to step in and take away the phone.

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Simmonds is a great example of a player some team is going to badly overpay for, expecting (hoping?) to get the 25-29 year old Simmonds.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:17 PM   #125
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You don't win Stanley Cups in July with free agency.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:27 PM   #126
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You don't win Stanley Cups in July with free agency.
Can't think of too many recent trade deadline moves that were great successes either. Gaborik, Bishop and Forsberg - all 3-4 years ago (but the last one was just a crazy trade anyway).
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:31 PM   #127
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:34 PM   #128
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Granlund has 5 points in 20+ game this year.
I suppose by a strict definition the Canucks won that deal but overall it will likely end up being a dufus for dufus trade.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:40 PM   #129
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Granlund has 5 points in 20+ game this year.
I suppose by a strict definition the Canucks won that deal but overall it will likely end up being a dufus for dufus trade.
Granlund is a guy I love, because relatively speaking he has few tools except the marvelous one between his ears. He's built something of a career entirely off of being really smart. But on any other team he's a tweener that is easily passed over.

Wish nothing but the best for that guy. We gambled at the 5c slots and lost.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:41 PM   #130
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You don't win Stanley Cups in July with free agency.
You do so with smart excellent drafting in all rounds. Which is what both Calgary and even more especially Winnipeg have done in recent years. The Jets have been perhaps the best drafting cup since relocating from Atlanta, and we are seeing it on the ice.

Most teams have a bad contract or two. Brouwer is the only one that hampers things significantly. Stajan will be gone after this season.

There is nothing that can be done about Brouwer other than play him until the end of next season and buy him out.

It is what it is.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:48 PM   #131
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Granlund was useful enough, but was never going to be more than a tweener here, especially when Bennett looked like a more sure thing.

Baertschi was, in fact, a terrible fourth liner. He simply cannot play that role, and would never be a higher winger on this team. he needs second line minutes and linemates to make any impact. Even now, I think he's the product of this linemates and not a real impact player. What winger on the Flames' lines 1-3 would he displace? And if you want him on the fourth line over Brouwer and/or Versteeg/Hathaway/Lazar/Stajan/Freddie, is he a better option than Mangiapane?
Not that I like Baertschi, but why can't be a small skilled guy be a 4th liner? They get easy match-ups and can skate around with the puck while the other team has their 'energy' slugs out there. I'd rather have Sven on the 4th line than a guy like Brouwer or Glass who spend the entire shift chasing the puck around in their own end.
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Old 12-04-2017, 01:47 PM   #132
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You don't rate a GM on the little trades like Granlund. He didn't fit into the team's plans so they moved him for a pick. Simple deal. The fact that he is carving out a bit of a career on a really thin roster is irrelevant. Good on him, I am happy for him.

But it isn't a strike against Treliving.

There are only two ways to evaluate Treliving on the trade:

1) Was Granlund a strong player who Treliving misjudged? (I think not)

2) Did Treliving get a good return for him (I think so)
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:10 PM   #133
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Granlund is a proven nhl level player, 4th line so be it. But he can be moved up your line up. He played on the RW, on the first two lines of the canucks and had a career high of 19 goals. Sure you can call it maybe a fluke year like colborne. Truth of the matter is, We gave up a 2nd rounder for a Lazar to play the same position, whose career high is 6 goals and has a measly 2 pts in 17 games. Vancouver obviously saw Shinkurak as a career ahler and we didn't. A bad deal is a bad deal.
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:17 PM   #134
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I think Treliving's biggest blunder on Brouwer was not moving him to Vegas. I get the initial signing, but once it was shown to be a disaster, you have to move on.

With Vegas there was a GM under whom he'd performed well. The Flames should have been providing Kulak or other assets to Vegas to get them to take Brouwer. This, in addition to Engellend who everyone knew was signing there anyways.
My completely baseless speculation is that a trade was worked out but then the Vegas shooting happened and Brouwer nixed the deal. The late waiver of Jankowski and Shipachyov indicates that something was up.
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:22 PM   #135
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I think Treliving's biggest blunder on Brouwer was not moving him to Vegas. I get the initial signing, but once it was shown to be a disaster, you have to move on.

With Vegas there was a GM under whom he'd performed well. The Flames should have been providing Kulak or other assets to Vegas to get them to take Brouwer. This, in addition to Engellend who everyone knew was signing there anyways.
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:28 PM   #136
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Mind bottling that he got an NTC and $4.5 million. Typical flames culture. Total disbelief in home grown options and overpay for a pony hiding in a pile of crap.
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:38 PM   #137
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You do so with smart excellent drafting in all rounds. Which is what both Calgary and even more especially Winnipeg have done in recent years. The Jets have been perhaps the best drafting cup since relocating from Atlanta, and we are seeing it on the ice.

Most teams have a bad contract or two. Brouwer is the only one that hampers things significantly. Stajan will be gone after this season.

There is nothing that can be done about Brouwer other than play him until the end of next season and buy him out.

It is what it is.
There's no proof that Calgary has drafted well since 2011 besides typically rose coloured fan projects of prospects.

2011 was an obvious homerun with Gaudreau alone but add in a couple more full time NHLers in Sven and Granlund and you are laughing.

2012 - Jankowski looks good but still just getting started. Kulak is a 6th d-man right now, which is fine. Gillies as a goalie you can wait on but he's not a can't miss guy, the rest are write-offs.

2013 - Monahan at 6th overall and then nothing despite 2 other first rounders

2014 - Bennett at 4th overall and then nothing.

2015 - At this point, you've got some prospects but not a blue chipper or anything. Hopefully you get some depth out of Andersson or Kylington on d and Mangiapane on forward but no sure things or anyone likely to move the needle.

2016/2017 - Besides Tkachuk - way too soon to judge.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:06 PM   #138
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Not that I like Baertschi, but why can't be a small skilled guy be a 4th liner? They get easy match-ups and can skate around with the puck while the other team has their 'energy' slugs out there. I'd rather have Sven on the 4th line than a guy like Brouwer or Glass who spend the entire shift chasing the puck around in their own end.
They can be. He can't. It was tried, and he failed. He was always chasing the play, a step behind, didn't check well and was dumb at forechecking. Brouwer is a way more effective "should be higher but plays on the fourth line" guy.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:09 PM   #139
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There's no proof that Calgary has drafted well since 2011 besides typically rose coloured fan projects of prospects.

...

2016/2017 - Besides Tkachuk - way too soon to judge.
Too soon, I guess, but Parsons and Dube are looking darn good. Valimaki too. Fox is pretty interesting.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:11 PM   #140
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At this point we should sell for scrap, nothing to salvage here.
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