I think Ricardo's point was that in the 82 games last season Bouwmeester was never clearly, without a doubt, the best player on the ice while leading his team to a victory.
And when a player is making $6.68 million/season you expect him to bring that game breaking ability at least once in a season.
3 stars isn't necessarily the best stat to show that, but I think there is some truth in what he was trying to say.
I think Ricardo's point was that in the 82 games last season Bouwmeester was never clearly, without a doubt, the best player on the ice while leading his team to a victory.
And when a player is making $6.68 million/season you expect him to bring that game breaking ability at least once in a season.
3 stars isn't necessarily the best stat to show that, but I think there is some truth in what he was trying to say.
when is a defenseman used in a defense first capacity on a low scoring team ever considered for a star? not often. anything Ricardo says about Bouwmeester is from such an extreme perverse bias that his obsession is scary
The Following User Says Thank You to Alberta_Beef For This Useful Post:
Yeah, there are a lot more advanced stats than what shows up on boxscores, cherry pick me one that makes him look good.
Ironman?
His zone starts added with his WOWY and his QoC added to his minutes show Bouwmeester played the toughest zone starts with the worst D partner against the toughest competition. Impossible for anyone not named Lidstrom to produce in any kind of appreciable way.
I appreciate what the guy was doing this year, which was opening up easier minutes for the less effective players, such as Iginla, Cammalleri, Tanguay, Giordano, et al the chance to score some goals.
Location: F*** me. We're so f***ing good, you check the f***ing standings? Lets f***ing go! F***ing practice!
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimate
His zone starts added with his WOWY and his QoC added to his minutes show Bouwmeester played the toughest zone starts with the worst D partner against the toughest competition. Impossible for anyone not named Lidstrom to produce in any kind of appreciable way.
I appreciate what the guy was doing this year, which was opening up easier minutes for the less effective players, such as Iginla, Cammalleri, Tanguay, Giordano, et al the chance to score some goals.
You do know that his zone starts are bloated because of the amount of times he or his D partner "Bouw-lite" ice the puck right? You also know he is the worst D on the Flames as far as offensive zone finish % right? Bringing up QoC, you say he had the worst D partner, yet Butler's QoC, corsi relative QoC, and corsi QoC numbers are rated higher than Bouwmeesters.
Anyways i've posted enough negative things in this I love J-Bo thread, if you would like to meet me in one of the other Bouwmeester threads to talk about how underwhelming and mediocre Bouwmeester really is I'm game.
__________________ Backlund for Selke 2017 2018
Oilers suck.
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to CsInMyBlood For This Useful Post:
You do know that his zone starts are bloated because of the amount of times he or his D partner "Bouw-lite" ice the puck right? You also know he is the worst D on the Flames as far as offensive zone finish % right? Bringing up QoC, you say he had the worst D partner, yet Butler's QoC, corsi relative QoC, and corsi QoC numbers are rated higher than Bouwmeesters.
Anyways i've posted enough negative things in this I love J-Bo thread, if you would like to meet me in one of the other Bouwmeester threads to talk about how underwhelming and mediocre Bouwmeester really is I'm game.
The stat’s show the opposite. His defensive starts to offensive zone finish are the highest on the team. This would be the opposite if they were icing the puck. This shows that, relative to zone starts, no defenceman started more times in the defensive zone and ended his shift in the offensive zone.
Last edited by Redlan; 08-16-2012 at 12:27 PM.
Reason: fixed terminology (also I based on playing majority of the season min > 50 games)
The Following User Says Thank You to Redlan For This Useful Post:
The stat’s show the opposite. His defensive starts to offensive starts are the highest on the team. This would be the opposite if they were icing the puck. This shows that, relative to zone starts, no defenceman started more times in the defensive zone and ended his shift in the offensive zone.
Offensive zone starts is different from offensive zone finishes.
__________________ FU, Jim Benning
Quote:
GMs around the campfire tell a story that if you say Sbisa 5 times in the mirror, he appears on your team with a 3.6 million cap hit.
The Following User Says Thank You to Super Nintendo Chalmers For This Useful Post:
when is a defenseman used in a defense first capacity on a low scoring team ever considered for a star? not often.
Umm... a star player, which Bouwmeester is paid to be? Bouwmeester may have been wrongly utilized by Brent, but Bouwmeester joined the Flames coming off two straight 15 goal seasons playing in all situations. You don't think Bouwmeester was given those same opportunities besides just a defense first role in his three years here? Bouwmeester was suppose to be an all situations player and he played himself out of offensive situations.
Bouwmeester plays the minutes of a typical #1 defenseman. Give me a break about defense first capacity or defensive zone starts as almost every #1 defenseman, especially those making over $6M a year, are on the ice for important defensive zone starts: Weber, Suter, Chara, Lidstrom, Keith, Pronger, etc. Bouwmeester wasn't signed to be an offensive defenseman or a defensive defenseman. He was signed to be a star defenseman who plays in all situations. He's been given ample opportunity to perform in all situations, not just defensive situations. Are you suggesting that Bouwmeester hasn't been given ample offensive opportunities?
As for the Flames being a low scoring team, in Bouwmeester's three seasons here, this past season was where the Flames averaged the least goals a game and Bouwmeester is actually came off his most productive offensive season as a Flame (there I'll end with something nice).
The Following User Says Thank You to FAN For This Useful Post:
Umm... a star player, which Bouwmeester is paid to be? Bouwmeester may have been wrongly utilized by Brent, but Bouwmeester joined the Flames coming off two straight 15 goal seasons playing in all situations. You don't think Bouwmeester was given those same opportunities besides just a defense first role in his three years here? Bouwmeester was suppose to be an all situations player and he played himself out of offensive situations.
Bouwmeester plays the minutes of a typical #1 defenseman. Give me a break about defense first capacity or defensive zone starts as almost every #1 defenseman, especially those making over $6M a year, are on the ice for important defensive zone starts: Weber, Suter, Chara, Lidstrom, Keith, Pronger, etc. Bouwmeester wasn't signed to be an offensive defenseman or a defensive defenseman. He was signed to be a star defenseman who plays in all situations. He's been given ample opportunity to perform in all situations, not just defensive situations. Are you suggesting that Bouwmeester hasn't been given ample offensive opportunities?
As for the Flames being a low scoring team, in Bouwmeester's three seasons here, this past season was where the Flames averaged the least goals a game and Bouwmeester is actually came off his most productive offensive season as a Flame (there I'll end with something nice).
therein lies the problem, you can't stop looking beyond the dollars and thinking star player.
Perhaps after year 1, or even year 2 you would have tempered expectations a bit and seen him for what he was being used as. A stay at home defensive defenseman
and considering Bouwmeester hasn't seen 1st unit PP minutes since his first couple months with the Flames. No he hasn't been given ample offensive opportunities.
Last edited by Alberta_Beef; 08-16-2012 at 07:55 PM.
You do know that his zone starts are bloated because of the amount of times he or his D partner "Bouw-lite" ice the puck right? You also know he is the worst D on the Flames as far as offensive zone finish % right? Bringing up QoC, you say he had the worst D partner, yet Butler's QoC, corsi relative QoC, and corsi QoC numbers are rated higher than Bouwmeesters.
Anyways i've posted enough negative things in this I love J-Bo thread, if you would like to meet me in one of the other Bouwmeester threads to talk about how underwhelming and mediocre Bouwmeester really is I'm game.
The only reason Jay had lower QOC numbers is because he plays far more minutes. This obviously suggests he plays against a larger number of competitors. Chris Butler also missed 1/4th (ok..17%) of the season and as a result only had one defensive partner all year.
His offensive zone finishes are also fairly easy to explain as he started the most amount of any Flames regular in the defensive end. In addition to that Calgary was the worst faceoff team in the league so blaming him for the inability of the Flames to posses and transition the puck is shortsighted.
The one thing that Bouwmeester pessimists cant deny is that Brent Sutter did not play towards his strengths. When the coach publicly states that his team is incapable of scoring off the rush, it pretty much sums up that relationship. Jay Bouwmeester was put into role he had never had success in (pure shutdown defender), and quite frankly never will.
I stand firm on my position that Bouwmeester was caught in a precarious position and is a much better player than what he has shown to this point in a Flames uniform.
I understand I am being optimistic about his future here in Calgary but it is extremely difficult to have a neutral standpoint in these cases because the majority of us eat, sleep, and breath flames hockey.
Last edited by HighLifeMan; 08-16-2012 at 09:06 PM.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to HighLifeMan For This Useful Post:
therein lies the problem, you can't stop looking beyond the dollars and thinking star player.
Perhaps after year 1, or even year 2 you would have tempered expectations a bit and seen him for what he was being used as. A stay at home defensive defenseman
The problem isn't that I can't look beyond dollars and thinking star player. The problem is there's a salary cap, the Flames are up against the cap every year, and Bouwmeester isn't worth the cap hit. An under 30 point stay-at-home defensive defenseman shouldn't be making $6.68M. And since Bouwmeester isn't a star as you seem to be implying, he shouldn't be playing so many minutes in the first place.
The Flames aren't a team who have over 10M in cap space who can afford to overpay players. The Flames have been up against the cap and overpaying nonstar players is often the recipe for missing the playoffs. I think it's stupid to ignore salary when there's a salary cap and the team is up against the cap all the time. Good players with bad contracts are not that valuable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef
and considering Bouwmeester hasn't seen 1st unit PP minutes since his first couple months with the Flames. No he hasn't been given ample offensive opportunities.
So you think Bouwmeester deserves 1st unit PP minutes? I think I'll have to disagree with you there.
The problem isn't that I can't look beyond dollars and thinking star player. The problem is there's a salary cap, the Flames are up against the cap every year, and Bouwmeester isn't worth the cap hit. An under 30 point stay-at-home defensive defenseman shouldn't be making $6.68M. And since Bouwmeester isn't a star as you seem to be implying, he shouldn't be playing so many minutes in the first place.
The Flames aren't a team who have over 10M in cap space who can afford to overpay players. The Flames have been up against the cap and overpaying nonstar players is often the recipe for missing the playoffs. I think it's stupid to ignore salary when there's a salary cap and the team is up against the cap all the time. Good players with bad contracts are not that valuable.
So you think Bouwmeester deserves 1st unit PP minutes? I think I'll have to disagree with you there.
The Flames may have been against the cap each year lately, but we haven't exactly missed out on acquiring anyone as a result, so it really doesn't matter how much of the cap anyone takes if it is not impeding the acquisition of someone. Cap space is only valuable when you need it.
Where have I implied he was a star? I have implied no such thing. And where did I say Bouwmeester deserved 1st unit PP time? I never, I said he never received ample offensive opportunities as you claimed. Your argument is pretty weak when you have to imagine things. Quit now while you are behind.
The Flames may have been against the cap each year lately, but we haven't exactly missed out on acquiring anyone as a result, so it really doesn't matter how much of the cap anyone takes if it is not impeding the acquisition of someone.
That's a pretty ignorant comment. Considering Feaster talked about being in salary cap jail, I think it's pretty clear that being up against the cap prevented Feaster from making at least a move or two that he wanted and could have made had he had cap space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef
Where have I implied he was a star? I have implied no such thing.
Umm... I said that you implied that Bouwmeester isn't a star. Can you read?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef
And where did I say Bouwmeester deserved 1st unit PP time? I never, I said he never received ample offensive opportunities as you claimed.
I never said that you said Bouwmeester deserved 1st unit PP time. Seems like you're imagining things. You said Bouwmeester never received ample offensive opportunities. Yet Bouwmeester was far and away the minutes leader for defenseman on the team. So please explain how Bouwmeester didn't receive ample offensive opportunities. Are you trying to defend Bouwmeester by suggesting he didn't receive ample offensive opportunites because he didn't deserve it? Hmm...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef
Your argument is pretty weak when you have to imagine things. Quit now while you are behind.
It seems you keep imagining that others imagine things...
Despite the crappy contact and shortcomings in his (expected) level of play, the Flames chances of making the playoffs are improved substantially with him in the line-up.
__________________
So far, this is the oldest I've been.
The Following User Says Thank You to Traditional_Ale For This Useful Post:
Despite the crappy contact and shortcomings in his (expected) level of play, the Flames chances of making the playoffs are improved substantially with him in the line-up.
Based on what?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to nik- For This Useful Post:
Despite the crappy contact and shortcomings in his (expected) level of play, the Flames chances of making the playoffs are improved substantially with him in the line-up.
History doesn't seem to agree with your statement.
The Following User Says Thank You to Rerun For This Useful Post:
