Should Alberta separate?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Bend it like Bourgeois+May 3 2005, 05:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bend it like Bourgeois @ May 3 2005, 05:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@May 3 2005, 10:22 AM

Well, since you've gone ahead and re-stated your reasons for separation (or disenchantment, or whatever) along the lines of 'its my oil, i'm keeping all of it', I don't have much choice but to revert to simple greed statements.# 'Labours' is not a euphamism for 'oil'.# A government without waste is utopian thinking.# Get used to it, it happens everywhere, all the time, and when they get caught, its time for a change in parties.

From that you get 'it's my oil, I'm keeping all of it'?

Keep up the good work kid. [/b][/quote]
Well, you claimed that your biggest beef was with your 33% of your 'labours' going to Ottawa, apparently to be mismanaged.

And thats why you sympathise w/ separation? The Gun Control fiasco? Ad Scam?

Oil doesn't even enter the equation for you?

So what _are_ your reasons? Don't want to pay taxes?

I guess I made the mistake of thinking you actually had a semi-legit reason for taking this position beyond petty issues.

[Jake]

Originally posted by MarchHare@May 1 2005, 05:11 PM

What does that have to do with anything? You're not seriously proposing some kind of "representation by economic impact" system, are you?

I think you need to check your math. The PC party had two out of 295 seats in 1993, or 0.7%, not 0.007.

It was a typo.. big deal. If your argument against my post depends on that, I suggest you find a new one.

As for your first comment I believe it has alot to do with it. 10% of Canada gets largely ignored, thats not right. We should have more influence than we do currently. If 10% of Canada is contributing an exceptional amount to the country, why shouldn't they get alittle more voice? If someone at your work contributes alot to a certain project, I feel that they deserve a larger reward than someone who did little. In this case Alberta is that person!

[MarchHare]

As for your first comment I believe it has alot to do with it. 10% of Canada gets largely ignored, thats not right. We should have more influence than we do currently. If 10% of Canada is contributing an exceptional amount to the country, why shouldn't they get alittle more voice? If someone at your work contributes alot to a certain project, I feel that they deserve a larger reward than someone who did little. In this case Alberta is that person!

I'd say that 10% of Canada does get a voice. In fact, Alberta's party of choice has been the official opposition for three terms running without ever electing an MP in Quebec, and having only minimal support in Ontario and Atlantic Canada.

If you're concerned that the Reform/Alliance/Conservative parties have been unable to make a breakthrough outside of the West and win enough seats to form a government, then perhaps they need to alter their policies to better reflect the values of the majority of Canadians. Currently that simply isn't the case.

Of course, if there was a massive shift to the left (much moreso than has already been done) by the CPC in order to win seats in Ontario, wouldn't that be selling out their old Western ideals? And in that case, is the West really being any more represented than they are now?

Also, being a citizen of this country isn't a job. Alberta is lucky that we're sitting on such a huge pile of oil...it's only arbitrary lines on a map that have given us our wealth. I don't believe that we should get a disproportionate amount of representation in Parliament simply because we're economically more fortunate than other regions of the country.

What you're suggesting amounts to giving rich people more voting power than poor people. I'm sorry, but I happen to believe that one of the fundamental tenents of democracy is that everyone is treated equally -- one person, one vote.

[kn]

Originally posted by MarchHare+May 2 2005, 11:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MarchHare @ May 2 2005, 11:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Not at all. Alberta has been the biggest net contributor in terms of transfer of wealth. It's more than fair for this province to ask for something back.

False.

Alberta sees more of its wealth distributed to other provinces per capita, but Ontario is the leader in total amount of dollars flowing out of the province.

Keep that in mind next time you say that the federal government only looks out for Ontario. [/b][/quote]
Not according to a study done by the economics department at the UofC where they determined that Alberta was the largest net contributor to Confederation and Quebec the largest debtor. I remember the media grabbing a hold of that one and of course the left dismissed it as biased since it was done at the UofC.

[HOZ]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher+May 3 2005, 04:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flames Draft Watcher @ May 3 2005, 04:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-HOZ@May 3 2005, 04:38 AM
BBTW: Can you name anything in the last 10 years, other than a hockey gold medal, that Canada has done that would make you REALLY proud to be an Canuck? It has been a very sad 2 decades!

I'm proud to be a Canadian everytime I venture south into the United States.

Plenty to be proud of IMO, Winsor Pilates listed some good points. [/b][/quote]
Yes, yes. I wear my Maple Leaf over my heart too.


I just think Canada can do alot better.... considering our people potential, position geographically, and resources.



But lets rah rah for mediocrity!

[HOZ]

If you want someone to see your side of the story, do you?
a)wage a war of words and threats to p*ss them off
or
b)try to be civil and convince them of the merit of your view

personally I think option B would help rid of some regionalism that we experience in Canada. But maybe you like option A.


I suggest you take your own advice. Go back to my first post where I answered your Canada does alot for Alberta and tell me where exactly I did A?

You started the pssing contest. Not me.

First female Prime Minister? I just about fell out of my chair on that one. Holy smokes. She was never elected PM and when Canada had a chance to elect her she promptly lead her party to the worst defeat in Canadian election history when me and 25 million other Canadians voted against her and her party. A moment to be proud of!!!!....sheesh.

As for the rest of your list. Keep shooting low, you'll never be disappointed in Canada. I just tend to have higher expectations of what Canada can and should do.

[flamingchina]

Speaking of reasons to be proud of being Canadian over the last twenty years.
I've been abroad now for the last two years or so, (Asia) and while I talk to a lot of Asians obviously, I alos talk to a lot of people from many many other countries.
Things I get told about Canada:
"It's a very beautiful Country."
"You have lots of tree's"
"You're in Iraq, aren't you?"
"At least your not American"
"You were at D-Day?"
"Wow, there's actually 30 million of you?"
"I suppose it's probanly nice there, but your not very free, and taxes are two high"
"Ohh yes, your multicultualism and peacekeeping are fantastic, more countries should be like you".

Which one of these do you think has not been told to me?
What is Canada seen as abroad?
A nice enough place to look at, but doesn't ever actually do anything.
as HOZ says, Yah for mediocracy.

[Eagle Eye]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@May 3 2005, 10:34 AM


So what _are_ your reasons? Don't want to pay taxes?

hmmm, mabe he like the rest of us would actually like to be taxed the right amount????? Instead of paying 33% with government waste in the billions, why not tax us say 20% and provide the same services? Seems like rocket science to me.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Eagle Eye+May 4 2005, 04:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Eagle Eye @ May 4 2005, 04:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@May 3 2005, 10:34 AM


So what _are_ your reasons? Don't want to pay taxes?

hmmm, mabe he like the rest of us would actually like to be taxed the right amount????? Instead of paying 33% with government waste in the billions, why not tax us say 20% and provide the same services? Seems like rocket science to me. [/b][/quote]
And why would you think that a separate Albertan gov't wouldn't be prone to scandals either?

That strikes me as a naive view. We've seen both Liberal and Conservative scandals in the past, it's not like one ideology has a monopoly on it. It would seem that politicians can be corrupted, regardless of party.

Maybe the answer is to try and give more power to the auditor general, or have tigher controls on spending, or some other reforms. Not sure why the answer to this scandal would be to separate, I don't follow the logic.

[Eagle Eye]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher+May 4 2005, 09:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flames Draft Watcher @ May 4 2005, 09:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

hmmm, mabe he like the rest of us would actually like to be taxed the right amount????? Instead of paying 33% with government waste in the billions, why not tax us say 20% and provide the same services? Seems like rocket science to me.

And why would you think that a separate Albertan gov't wouldn't be prone to scandals either?

That strikes me as a naive view. We've seen both Liberal and Conservative scandals in the past, it's not like one ideology has a monopoly on it. It would seem that politicians can be corrupted, regardless of party.

Maybe the answer is to try and give more power to the auditor general, or have tigher controls on spending, or some other reforms. Not sure why the answer to this scandal would be to separate, I don't follow the logic. [/b][/quote]
Wasn't saying that it wouldn't (I am definetly not a seperatist). I was just responding to the question about not paying taxes. To me I feel that the people of Canada as a whole are getting screwed. I think that Alberta just feels alienated because the liberals (who are the ones that have been screwing us over) are going to be voted in again because the people in the East are terrified that the west will have more say if they were to vote the Conservatives in (which really isn't true). Thats my opinion anyways.

The reason that I think that the Conservatives should be voted in is more or less to punish what the Liberals have done, just like the PC's were punished after Malroney's term.

I love this country, but it could be better.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Eagle Eye@May 4 2005, 04:51 PM
Wasn't saying that it wouldn't (I am definetly not a seperatist). I was just responding to the question about not paying taxes. To me I feel that the people of Canada as a whole are getting screwed. I think that Alberta just feels alienated because the liberals (who are the ones that have been screwing us over) are going to be voted in again because the people in the East are terrified that the west will have more say if they were to vote the Conservatives in (which really isn't true). Thats my opinion anyways.

The reason that I think that the Conservatives should be voted in is more or less to punish what the Liberals have done, just like the PC's were punished after Malroney's term.

I love this country, but it could be better.

Good points.

I tend to believe there are more factors than just worry about the West gaining power in the issue of non-Westerners voting Tory but it definitely is one of the factors.

I think the Liberals should be punished as well. But my personal ideologies and beliefs mean I don't consider the Conservatives a better option. I think that's the case with a lot of people.

IMO we need more legimate alternatives. And to accomplish that I think we have to move to proportional representation and start giving a voice to the minority in a region. This would give us a shift away from just having the big 3 parties and instead having viable alternatives. That I think would in turn help to keep everyone accountable. I prefer the idea of having a minorty gov't to a majority gov't.

And by proportional representation I'm talking if 5% of Albertans vote Green, 10% vote NDP, 15% vote Liberal and 70% vote Tory (ficticious numbers just as an example) that the Greens would get 5% of Alberta's seats, NDP would get 10% of Alberta's seats, Libs 15% and Tories 70.

That would be a truer form of democracy than we currently have. We have tyranny of the majority in regions.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by flamingchina@May 4 2005, 07:24 AM
Speaking of reasons to be proud of being Canadian over the last twenty years.
I've been abroad now for the last two years or so, (Asia) and while I talk to a lot of Asians obviously, I alos talk to a lot of people from many many other countries.
Things I get told about Canada:
"It's a very beautiful Country."
"You have lots of tree's"
"You're in Iraq, aren't you?"
"At least your not American"
"You were at D-Day?"
"Wow, there's actually 30 million of you?"
"I suppose it's probanly nice there, but your not very free, and taxes are two high"
"Ohh yes, your multicultualism and peacekeeping are fantastic, more countries should be like you".

Which one of these do you think has not been told to me?
What is Canada seen as abroad?
A nice enough place to look at, but doesn't ever actually do anything.
as HOZ says, Yah for mediocracy.

I'm not sure I get your point here. People in Asia don't know much about Canada? They don't think we "do anything"? What exactly is it that we are supposed to do that your average person in Asia would take a lot of notice in?

[MarchHare]

I'm not sure I get your point here. People in Asia don't know much about Canada? They don't think we "do anything"? What exactly is it that we are supposed to do that your average person in Asia would take a lot of notice in?

An even better question is why should we care what random people in Asia think about Canada?

What does the average Canadian know about Indonesia? Or Hong Kong? Or Taiwan? Or South Korea? What difference does it make?

And if the choice is between not having random Asians know about you vs. making a lot of noise and spearheading poorly-conceived military campaigns, I'll gladly choose the former everytime.

[flamingchina]

Ehh these are more random Europeans/other first world country people than Asians. The only real asian one is "You have lots of trees" I got that one a lot.
My point mainly was, Canada, even if it's a G7 country and such, is thought of, and talked about, and noticed much less than other countries that are not. This is an aside from Alberta seperation and all that, and a continuation of the theme of Canadian mediocracy due to the lack of will for any change or the lack of appetite for risk.

And the choice isn't a black and white between having random Asians know about and us invading Greenland.
We could do a lot more than we currently do on the world stage.

[flamingchina]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher@May 4 2005, 04:58 PM


And by proportional representation I'm talking if 5% of Albertans vote Green, 10% vote NDP, 15% vote Liberal and 70% vote Tory (ficticious numbers just as an example) that the Greens would get 5% of Alberta's seats, NDP would get 10% of Alberta's seats, Libs 15% and Tories 70.

That would be a truer form of democracy than we currently have. We have tyranny of the majority in regions.

The biggest issue I see with proportional representation in that form is, how do you pick the candidates that are put in office? Currently we "technically" vote for our local candidates, who happen to be in a party. This would effectivly get rid of independant candidates, (who currently don't really matter anyways though)
Another interesting option to explore would be preference voting where people rank there choices. (this migfht actually be bad for the CPC... but good for independants.) biggest problem is it's complicated.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by flamingchina+May 4 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (flamingchina @ May 4 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Flames Draft Watcher@May 4 2005, 04:58 PM


And by proportional representation I'm talking if 5% of Albertans vote Green, 10% vote NDP, 15% vote Liberal and 70% vote Tory (ficticious numbers just as an example) that the Greens would get 5% of Alberta's seats, NDP would get 10% of Alberta's seats, Libs 15% and Tories 70.

That would be a truer form of democracy than we currently have. We have tyranny of the majority in regions.

The biggest issue I see with proportional representation in that form is, how do you pick the candidates that are put in office? Currently we "technically" vote for our local candidates, who happen to be in a party. This would effectivly get rid of independant candidates, (who currently don't really matter anyways though)
Another interesting option to explore would be preference voting where people rank there choices. (this migfht actually be bad for the CPC... but good for independants.) biggest problem is it's complicated. [/b][/quote]
Good points.

In proprtional I would think one way to do it would be to have the party rank their members (probably through an internal vote of the party). Then when they get let's say 7 seats, the top 7 guys on their list would get in. Thus the party would be judged on the list of candidates it presents. Under this system it would make sense for politcally motivated people to be a member of all parties they care about so they can have a say about which candidates get in. It does pose some interesting questions about how to campaign. But I think that is also a problem area at the moment

I've love to see electoral reform as a bigger issue. Campaign financing and the actual voting system affect all of our politics. As such I would think they should be huge issues to Canadians.

Love to see more talk on preference voting, proportional representation and any other suggestions.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by flamingchina@May 4 2005, 12:45 PM
Ehh these are more random Europeans/other first world country people than Asians. The only real asian one is "You have lots of trees" I got that one a lot.
My point mainly was, Canada, even if it's a G7 country and such, is thought of, and talked about, and noticed much less than other countries that are not. This is an aside from Alberta seperation and all that, and a continuation of the theme of Canadian mediocracy due to the lack of will for any change or the lack of appetite for risk.

And the choice isn't a black and white between having random Asians know about and us invading Greenland.
We could do a lot more than we currently do on the world stage.

Well then I gotta ask again -- what exactly could we do to be more "thought of" and really, why would we want to?

I don't know how much more influence we can have in the world. I'd say we already have a rather out of proportion amount of clout as it is considering how few people we have here. 4 countries in the world have 32 million people -- Canada, Morocco, Kenya and Algeria. Do any of those places have more visibility on the world stage?

They might, but probably not for good reasons.

I don't know, I just find all this separation talk ridiculous. Just look around the internet. Do searches for "quality of life" or "safe cities" or "we are in one of the wealthiest, safest countries in the world" and then lets hear more about this crappy place we want to separate from.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Eagle Eye+May 4 2005, 04:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Eagle Eye @ May 4 2005, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

And why would you think that a separate Albertan gov't wouldn't be prone to scandals either?

That strikes me as a naive view. We've seen both Liberal and Conservative scandals in the past, it's not like one ideology has a monopoly on it. It would seem that politicians can be corrupted, regardless of party.

Maybe the answer is to try and give more power to the auditor general, or have tigher controls on spending, or some other reforms. Not sure why the answer to this scandal would be to separate, I don't follow the logic.

Wasn't saying that it wouldn't (I am definetly not a seperatist). I was just responding to the question about not paying taxes. To me I feel that the people of Canada as a whole are getting screwed. I think that Alberta just feels alienated because the liberals (who are the ones that have been screwing us over) are going to be voted in again because the people in the East are terrified that the west will have more say if they were to vote the Conservatives in (which really isn't true). Thats my opinion anyways.

The reason that I think that the Conservatives should be voted in is more or less to punish what the Liberals have done, just like the PC's were punished after Malroney's term.

I love this country, but it could be better. [/b][/quote]
Fair enough. This thread is about Separatism, as noted in the title, so all complaints (like taxes) are taken w/in that context.

I don't think anyone likes to pay taxes.

There are plenty of Liberal/Conservative threads going already, pick one.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by HOZ+May 4 2005, 04:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (HOZ @ May 4 2005, 04:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I suggest you take your own advice. Go back to my first post where I answered your Canada does alot for Alberta and tell me where exactly I did A?
You started the pssing contest. Not me.
[/b]

My first post never stated even stated Canada does alot for Alberta. I asked what is so bad about being an Albertan in Canada. The whole purpose of my post was that this issue is beyond politics. You oddly responded by telling me everything that the Liberals have and will do to us (assuming somehow that I was supporting them in the first place). This is where the p*ssing war started. Your entire post was p*ssing.

<!--QuoteBegin-HOZ@May 4 2005, 04:32 AM
As for the rest of your list. Keep shooting low, you'll never be disappointed in Canada. I just tend to have higher expectations of what Canada can and should do.[/quote]
Higher expectations? No, maybe different. But How could we know, you still havn't told said what any of them are. All you've done is state howmuch the Libs have screwed us and that I don't expect enough from my country.
Could you please will me in on what these higher expectations are?