Egypt leaves the Internet, citizens revolt. Update: Internet's back, still revolting.

[Reggie Dunlop]

A cautionary tale

Enormous consequences should the movement be crushed.

This is how badly people want democracy. Sometimes it's easy for those of use who have grown up with it to become complacent.

[Nehkara]

Reports are saying that Mohamed ElBaradei has arrived in Tahrir square in Cairo and will address the protesters directly.

[worth]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

The Iranians failed. There's no clear signs that the Egyptians will succeed. I think it's the beginning of something, but it's going to take a long, long, long, long time.

Iranian Issue is much tougher than the Egyptian issue, you're right.

Man I really hope you are not serious...

Yes, i'm serious. In a transitional government, they are going to want to be represented. I don't have a problem with it. Would I want them as the ruling party in Egypt? No. But this is part of what a democracy is. There are people that support this party in Egypt, they should be represented in government. And working with other parties will keep them in check. I really don't think it's an issue.

[Nehkara]

From BBC News:

1703 More detail on Mr ElBaradei's speech to protesters, via Reuters once more: "You have taken back your rights and what we have begun cannot go back. We have one main demand - the end of he regime and the beginning of a new stage, a new Egypt. I bow to the people of Egypt in respect. I ask of you patience, change is coming in the next few days."

[algernon]

I'm not a Muslim, I'm a whitebread honkey who's only known peace and democracy my whole life, but I feel a strong connection to these people. I don't know why I'm getting goosebumps watching those videos, but I'm blown away.

People so devout, that they stop everything in the middle of near chaos and bow in prayer? If this is what Islam is, surely there must be a way for the West to be at peace with Muslims.

I sincerely hope they are successful, and with out violence, as that is speaking louder than a violent revolution ever could.

I hope this is the beginning of the end of the "War on Terror", and the beginning of a "War on the ass holes who wreck it for everybody".

[worth]

ElBaradei is speaking now:

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

Asking for the regime to step down. He was speaking on a bull horn. There's no way for him to get the message across. He can't go on TV, there are no phones, there is no internet. Mubarak has made it difficult for sure.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by worth

ElBaradei is speaking now:

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

Asking for the regime to step down. He was speaking on a bull horn. There's no way for him to get the message across. He can't go on TV, there are no phones, there is no internet. Mubarak has made it difficult for sure.

Yes, revolutions are only successful with the internet and TV.

[worth]

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Yes, revolutions are only successful with the internet and TV.

Originally Posted by worth

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

He was being sarcastic.

[Nehkara]

The curfew in Cairo, Alexandria, and Suez has been extended. It is now from 3 PM to 8 AM.

However, this curfew is being almost completely ignored by the protesters.

As a side note, could you imagine being required to stay indoors from 3 PM to 8 AM every day? That's insane.

[billybob123]

Originally Posted by Nehkara

As a side note, could you imagine being required to stay indoors from 3 PM to 8 AM every day? That's insane.

I (finally) heard from my extended in-laws in Alex - forget leaving during the curfew - they haven't left their house in days. This has got to be pretty frightening for everyone -- no one knows what's going to happen.

Shops are all closed, no work since everything is closed and/or too dangerous to get to. Why leave home and risk being killed? Yikes. I'm just glad everyone's okay - and I still hope for no more deaths in this situation, but gotta be realistic here - it's just going to get worse.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by worth

Iranian Issue is much tougher than the Egyptian issue, you're right.



Yes, i'm serious. In a transitional government, they are going to want to be represented. I don't have a problem with it. Would I want them as the ruling party in Egypt? No. But this is part of what a democracy is. There are people that support this party in Egypt, they should be represented in government. And working with other parties will keep them in check. I really don't think it's an issue.

One of the key states in the middle east under fundamentalist islamic rule, that's exactly what the world needs. Awesome! All hail democracy, where ends justify means. Mubarak kept them in check. I'd love to see how will "democrats" keep them in check, just like they kept in check one crazy dude with a terrible mustache back in the day. Me thinks Egyptians are about to be fataed hard by "democracy" when they freely elect even worse creatures that Mumbarak. These middle eastern "revolutions" seem to have a tendecy to generate regimes far worse than regimes they fought against. But of course, a true western democract doesn't care about that..right...

One more thing..these romantic notions that people with human rights in their hearts are standing up against the evil dictators are so cute...almost brings a tear to my eye...coming from people who never experienced any kind of revolution and therefore they hopelessly idealize the whole thing. You can bet your bottom dollar that majority of these people shouting they want "their goddamned rights" do not have the same rights in mind like you do. The anit-US (western) sentiment is huge in Egypt and unless the army takes over (see Turkey, and the west will of course cry that this is un-democratic) this revolution has every potential to generate a very hostile key arabic country.

[Nehkara]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

One of the key states in the middle east under fundamentalist islamic rule, that's exactly what the world needs. Awesome! All hail democracy, where ends justify means. Mubarak kept them in check. I'd love to see how will "democrats" keep them in check, just like they kept in check one crazy dude with a terrible mustache back in the day. Me thinks Egyptians are about to be fataed hard by "democracy" when they freely elect even worse creatures that Mumbarak. These middle eastern "revolutions" seem to have a tendecy to generate regimes far worse than regimes they fought against. But of course, a true western democract doesn't care about that..right...

So your answer is to keep the 30-year dictator in power and tell the people to go fata themselves?

I'm not sure letting the Muslim Brotherhood have a key role in government is a good deal either but I think a government headed by Mohamed ElBaradei is a good idea. Just depends who the people would vote for I guess. At least he is a well respected and well known person around the world.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Nehkara

So your answer is to keep the 30-year dictator in power and tell the people to go fata themselves?

I'm not sure letting the Muslim Brotherhood have a key role in government is a good deal either but I think a government headed by Mohamed ElBaradei is a good idea. Just depends who the people would vote for I guess. At least he is a well respected and well known person around the world.

My answer is to build a big wall around any and every nation who elects a fundamentalist islamic regime that is dangerous to its citizens, neighbours and the world as a whole, and make their passports void for international travel.

I think the best we can hope for is that the secular army will take over (ie Turkey) and hopefully will keep islamists in check until people figure out how to live in a 21st century and not in the middle ages. I am not holding my breath, however.

[billybob123]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

I think the best we can hope for is that the secular army will take over (ie Turkey) and hopefully will keep islamists in check until people figure out how to live in a 21st century and not in the middle ages. I am not holding my breath, however.

The last time the "secular" army "took over" in Egypt, Sadat was assassinated by an Islamist sect.

I think that the government of Egypt that should replace Mubarak's is the one that the Egyptian people choose. Hey, listen, it's their right to choose. If their government is anti-US and pro-Islam, that's their choice. Democracy sometimes elects people we don't like (Chavez, Morales, and the like). The issue is that we need to be vigilant that they don't become like the last group and declare themselves "president-for-life".

Haven't we learned anything in the West that trying to influence elections in the second and third world leads to disaster for us and everyone involved? E.g. Allende in Chile?

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

My answer is to build a big wall around any and every nation who elects a fundamentalist islamic regime that is dangerous to its citizens, neighbours and the world as a whole, and make their passports void for international travel.

I think the best we can hope for is that the secular army will take over (ie Turkey) and hopefully will keep islamists in check until people figure out how to live in a 21st century and not in the middle ages. I am not holding my breath, however.

Heres a better idea to keep us away from the Islamic boogeyman. Stop empowering dictators that rule over them and give them a right to self determination. It seems like quite a few people never stop to wonder why they are angry. Might have something to do with the years of oppression.

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

One of the key states in the middle east under fundamentalist islamic rule, that's exactly what the world needs. Awesome! All hail democracy, where ends justify means. Mubarak kept them in check. I'd love to see how will "democrats" keep them in check, just like they kept in check one crazy dude with a terrible mustache back in the day. Me thinks Egyptians are about to be fataed hard by "democracy" when they freely elect even worse creatures that Mumbarak. These middle eastern "revolutions" seem to have a tendecy to generate regimes far worse than regimes they fought against. But of course, a true western democract doesn't care about that..right...

One more thing..these romantic notions that people with human rights in their hearts are standing up against the evil dictators are so cute...almost brings a tear to my eye...coming from people who never experienced any kind of revolution and therefore they hopelessly idealize the whole thing. You can bet your bottom dollar that majority of these people shouting they want "their goddamned rights" do not have the same rights in mind like you do. The anit-US (western) sentiment is huge in Egypt and unless the army takes over (see Turkey, and the west will of course cry that this is un-democratic) this revolution has every potential to generate a very hostile key arabic country.

You're kind of an 'ends justify means' guy yourself, aren't you? I mean, you are arguing that the continuation of an oppressive regime is acceptable in the interest of international security.

When will the people in Egypt deserve a shot at legitimate democracy?

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

You're kind of an 'ends justify means' guy yourself, aren't you? I mean, you are arguing that the continuation of an oppressive regime is acceptable in the interest of international security.

When will the people in Egypt deserve a shot at legitimate democracy?

The problem is that it has been demonstrated many times that democracy and fundamentalist Islam are incompatible. There was a revolution exactly like this in Iran, and the peoples choice came in, look where they are now. Its not a simple answer, I agree Mubarak has to go but the replacement regime is not going to be this feel good democratically elected government. This is going to be Iran all over again.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

The problem is that it has been demonstrated many times that democracy and fundamentalist Islam are incompatible. There was a revolution exactly like this in Iran, and the peoples choice came in, look where they are now. Its not a simple answer, I agree Mubarak has to go but the replacement regime is not going to be this feel good democratically elected government. This is going to be Iran all over again.

Iran happened because the US backed another dictator and went against the people. The revolution in Egypt isnt backed by the Islamists, its the young educated people who want self determination and decent jobs.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Iran happened because the US backed another dictator and went against the people. The revolution in Egypt isnt backed by the Islamists, its the young educated people who want self determination and decent jobs.

If you think the Islamists are not going to take this revolution over, you are naive. Who is going to fill the political void, some secular democratically elected party?