[Signing] Flames sign James Neal (5 years, 5.75 AAV)

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

The unspoken 'Where RU Chris O'Sullivan' rule.

Can you explain it again to those of us who aren’t members of the inner circle?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

Can you explain it again to those of us who aren’t members of the inner circle?

See your posts, but substitute Backlund for Neal.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

Can you explain it again to those of us who aren’t members of the inner circle?

[CanadaMatt]

So do you think you guys have succeeded in your attempts to deflect criticism of James Neal? ...or does the campaign still have some more tricks up its sleeve?

Should we get this back on the thread topic.

From this point forward, what is a pass for #18 in the regular season?

10 more goals (total 13)
20 more points (total 27)
-10 (even from this point forward)

Is that considered success?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

So do you think you guys have succeeded in your attempts to deflect criticism of James Neal? ...or does the campaign still have some more tricks up its sleeve?

What "campaign"? I see none other than your insistent obsession with James Neal. Most of us have better things to talk about.

Should we get this back on the thread topic.

From this point forward, what is a pass for #18 in the regular season?

10 more goals (total 13)
20 more points (total 27)
-10 (even from this point forward)

Is that considered success?

Plus-minus is fairly meaningless, and I think at this point there is no "success"to be reached this season for James Neal. I personally don't care much so long as the Flames keep winning and look this good doing it. Neal could finish the season at his current point total and suck in the playoffs and I wouldn't be terribly bothered if the Flames go on a run. For me, I am not interested in belabouring the point of his current struggles when there is so much other good stuff happening.

But it is important to note also that this is just one season in an otherwise pretty impressive career. Yeah, Neal is an older player who will likely not serve out his full contract, but I would not be surprised if after a disastrous year he ends up looking better next season. But for now—and given that there is really no recourse for the team right now—this is an easy problem to ignore.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

So do you think you guys have succeeded in your attempts to deflect criticism of James Neal? ...or does the campaign still have some more tricks up its sleeve?

Should we get this back on the thread topic.

From this point forward, what is a pass for #18 in the regular season?

10 more goals (total 13)
20 more points (total 27)
-10 (even from this point forward)

Is that considered success?

To me, success turns on the timing of those goals and points. If Neal scores a handful of goals at big moments of big games down the stretch and in the play-offs, I would consider it a successful season. Doesn't need to be that many either. I would take three such "big goals" over twenty meaningless ones.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

The unspoken 'Where RU Chris O'Sullivan' rule.

Actually, the problem with Where RU Chris O'Sullivan was that he posted his anti-Backlund diatribes everywhere. In every thread. Whether bringing up Backlund was relevant or not.

In this case, Textcritic is indicating that CanadaMatt has, while posting a large number posts about this player, largely confined those posts to a thread about said player.

Honestly, if some people need thicker skin. Forget his contract. Until James Neal does something even to justify being in this lineup, people should know that this thread is going to be little more than complaints about Neal playing crappy hockey.

And in that regard, the comparison to Textcritic and Jiri's obsession with the anti-fighting stance in any thread where fighting is a relevant topic is valid. Even if one dislilkes a single-minded obsession/position someone has on a topic, if it's relevant to the thread, it's fair game.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

So do you think you guys have succeeded in your attempts to deflect criticism of James Neal? ...or does the campaign still have some more tricks up its sleeve?

Should we get this back on the thread topic.

From this point forward, what is a pass for #18 in the regular season?

10 more goals (total 13)
20 more points (total 27)
-10 (even from this point forward)

Is that considered success?

First I gotta say that if you want people to discuss with you the way you frame it. When you ask if people have "succeeded in your attempts to deflect criticism of James Neal" it doesn't invite actual conversation.
But in interest progressing things. I think Neal is helping with the culture of this team - which did seem to need re-shaping.

And the team is doing well.
But the fact is he's paid to produce and he's not.
The season to this point is a sunk cost. The team is scoring enough and winning regularly. For me - I think where I need to see him really step up is in the playoffs. If he scores some big goals, that will wipe out an otherwise terrible year.

[Kipper_3434]

Posters who claim that the James Neal criticism is invalid or unimportant, because of the standings this season, are conveniently ignoring that the biggest problem is the upcoming cap crunch. This is a discussion forum, discussion is never going to be anywhere close to 100% positive. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to discuss our biggest free agent flop to date. What is wrong IMO is attacking posters and trying to force them to sweep the topic under the rug, just cause the team is playing well. This isn't the calgary flames general discussion thread. It's the James Neal thread, and he has the worst contract on the team. If you don't like the discussion or can't handle negativity, maybe this isn't a thread you should open.

Good day

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Actually, the problem with Where RU Chris O'Sullivan was that he posted his anti-Backlund diatribes everywhere. In every thread. Whether bringing up Backlund was relevant or not.

In this case, Textcritic is indicating that CanadaMatt has, while posting a large number posts about this player, largely confined those posts to a thread about said player.

Honestly, if some people need thicker skin. Forget his contract. Until James Neal does something even to justify being in this lineup, people should know that this thread is going to be little more than complaints about Neal playing crappy hockey.

And in that regard, the comparison to Textcritic and Jiri's obsession with the anti-fighting stance in any thread where fighting is a relevant topic is valid. Even if one dislilkes a single-minded obsession/position someone has on a topic, if it's relevant to the thread, it's fair game.

It's fair game to complain but right now it's pretty low hanging fruit. It's obvious to everyone he's not playing well so posters stating the obvious over and over aren't exactly forwarding the conversation in this forum. Flames win a game and it's; "Neal is terrible". Flames lose a game and it's; "Neal is terrible". Uh-huh and...…….

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Actually, the problem with Where RU Chris O'Sullivan was that he posted his anti-Backlund diatribes everywhere. In every thread. Whether bringing up Backlund was relevant or not.

In this case, Textcritic is indicating that CanadaMatt has, while posting a large number posts about this player, largely confined those posts to a thread about said player.

Honestly, if some people need thicker skin. Forget his contract. Until James Neal does something even to justify being in this lineup, people should know that this thread is going to be little more than complaints about Neal playing crappy hockey.

And in that regard, the comparison to Textcritic and Jiri's obsession with the anti-fighting stance in any thread where fighting is a relevant topic is valid. Even if one dislilkes a single-minded obsession/position someone has on a topic, if it's relevant to the thread, it's fair game.

I think TC's estimates were pretty off the cuff. I see this guy's posts here, in the GT, in the PGT, etc.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

So do you think you guys have succeeded in your attempts to deflect criticism of James Neal? ...or does the campaign still have some more tricks up its sleeve?

Should we get this back on the thread topic.

From this point forward, what is a pass for #18 in the regular season?

10 more goals (total 13)
20 more points (total 27)
-10 (even from this point forward)

Is that considered success?

If Neal can manage a stretch of even 15 games this year where he's 0.5 PPG, I'll take it. If he scores a memorable playoff goal, that should forgive a lot as well. Matt Stajan had 17 points in 14/15, but he scores one dagger and nobody cares that he made $30M for basically 21 pts/season.

I do think Neal is going to have a strong off season, and would be willing to put down $50 that he actually scores 20 next year, if only next year.

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think TC's estimates were pretty off the cuff. I see this guy's posts here, in the GT, in the PGT, etc.

I made a couple of time appropriate comments in GDT and PGT, however have limited my criticism to this thread almost exclusively. Are you suggesting I de-railed those threads with my comments?

Did you miss my praise for Kylington and Andersson in those threads, or would citing those posts mean that your arguments were invalidated.

Let’s talk about CanadaMatt and try to discredit him, then we can de-rail any criticism of James Neal. I mean look at the amount of detective work you guys are putting in, in a desperate attempt to try and keep a failing argument alive.

Now back on topic... is 27 points at the end of the regular season a ‘success’ now?

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If Neal can manage a stretch of even 15 games this year where he's 0.5 PPG, I'll take it. If he scores a memorable playoff goal, that should forgive a lot as well. Matt Stajan had 17 points in 14/15, but he scores one dagger and nobody cares that he made $30M for basically 21 pts/season.

I do think Neal is going to have a strong off season, and would be willing to put down $50 that he actually scores 20 next year, if only next year.

I get your point. I’m concerned that the top line goes cold for a 8-10 game stretch and with little bottom 6 scoring potential, we miss the playoffs. I guess this is why I’m limiting this question to the regular season.

Granted Neal has scored 33.3% of his goals when the flames have been trailing by at least 8 goals...10 additional goals like this is worth less than 1 dagger at the right time, so I see what you’re saying.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think TC's estimates were pretty off the cuff. I see this guy's posts here, in the GT, in the PGT, etc.

It's pretty easy to check. I just read every post CanadaMatt has made on the forum since the day Neal was signed. There are 66, and 60 of them are either in this thread or complaining about Neal by name in other threads.

Furthermore, it's obviously not about Neal's performance, because CanadaMatt was attacking Neal on the day he was signed – three months before he ever played a single game for the Flames. He chose his whipping boy in advance, and so far as I can tell from CP posts, his sole joy in life is to remind everybody that his choice panned out. If Neal had 10 goals so far this season, I wonder where CanadaMatt would find the will to live.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

I get your point. concerned that the top line goes cold for a 8-10 game stretch and with little bottom 6 scoring potential, we miss the playoffs. I guess this is why I’m limiting this question to the regular season...

This strikes me as a fairly overblown concern. Sean Monahan and Johnny Gaudreau have had precious few dry spells of this duration in their careers, and they look to be playing the best hockey of their entire careers right now. Elias Lindholm has been a revelation—and not just in terms of production; the guy creates scoring chances with just about every shift. Moreover, Tkachuk has been incredible this season, so any thought of the top line falling off of a cliff are significantly mitigated by the second-line and how it has looked this season. Historically speaking, teams that are on +110-point clips at Christmas time simply do not miss the playoffs.

In the end, it looks like a lot of complaining for the sake of complaining. Yes, James Neal is playing poorly, and his contract looks bad. But it's a sunk cost for this season—not much to be done about it except hope that the team's performance continues to make it a non-issue.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

I get your point. I’m concerned that the top line goes cold for a 8-10 game stretch and with little bottom 6 scoring potential, we miss the playoffs. I guess this is why I’m limiting this question to the regular season.

Granted Neal has scored 33.3% of his goals when the flames have been trailing by at least 8 goals...10 additional goals like this is worth less than 1 dagger at the right time, so I see what you’re saying.

I don't recall any team that was 2nd in their conference at Christmas missing the playoffs. If Rittich and Smith both suffered season-ending injuries, maybe, but not if a line goes cold. The only thing that can cause a collapse like that is non-compliance with the salary cap combined with injuries that force you to play less than a full roster and giftwrap the division to Vancouver so you play an ascendant Hawks team in the 1st round.

They score 4 goals a game without Neal being relevant. They have another four and a half years to get through, so there's no choice but to keep working at it.

[868904]

Neal is saving his 20 goals for the playoffs, winning the Conn Smythe and Stanley Cup in the process.

Then he's going to retire and allow the Flames to terminate the contract.

[Phagoof]

He should be sat. He was awful last night and you could easily make the argument that he was the reason for two goals against. He just floats around out there.

Trade him and a pick to Pitt for Bryan Rust.

[Philly06Cup]

Important to remember Neal is signed for 4 years.

His current play is crap and he probably deserves to be benched if you are trying your hardest to win in the very near future. But, since he is signed for 4 more years, it makes sense to try your damndest best to get him going. Suffer a bit now, reap rewards for 4 more years in the future.

You can wish all you want that we didn't sign him, but that's not reality. Gotta work with what you have. I doubt management wants to buy him out after this year, so management should absolutely try their best to make a fit for him. Until Neal gets to a point where he is complete trash and worthy of a permanent benching / buyout, that is the most rational thing to do.