Hundreds of cops making six figures

[MJM]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

You must realize that private professionals usually get reimbursed other ways usually through bonuses and or stock options. The government has nothing like that.

Precious few bonuses have been handed out in recent years, and even so the company has to be profitable or meet certain targets for them to be paid, and they most certainly aren't at time and a half like the nurses and policemen are getting.

Similar bonus programs could be made for police officers. I'd fully support it. Bonus for coming in under budget as a department/unit, based on reduction of crime rates, man days missed, etc.

Paying each officer $5,000-$10,000 for hitting targets linked to job performance is a hell of a lot better than just dolling out 20-30K to a guy for being physically present. Will never happen though. Unions would never allow for the tax payer supplied gravy fountain to dry up.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Wow. You are right. It sounds exactly like a private sector job in some firm downtown.

Although a degree is still valued with the CPS, they found those with degrees don't necessarily make good cops. So to equate education to salary, at least in the police world doesn't really make sense. The move is towards older applicants with plenty of life experience who can, or at least, have experience resolving conflict.

As you like to use anecdoctal stories, so do I. I know 2 guys that go to work downtown in some financial firm. One got there because his dad pulled some strings the other has a few years in some arts program in university and got there because he was recognized as having a knack for investments decisions. See what I did there?

You mention pensions. Do you have any idea what a cop pays into their pensions every month? More then some mortgages.

You don't seem to set on seeing the other side of the equation. Compensation is not solely based on education.

I'd be putting a mortgage into my pension plan to if my employer matched it.

Daddy may have pulled some strings to get your buddy in the door, but if you don't produce you're on the chopping block downtown. You need to be able to ustify upward movement with a business case.

Your other story is a fabrication from your friend. No one with an arts degree is working with the brokers downtown unless they have another economics based degree to support. Furthermore, they would not be eligible to obtain the CFA or any other required designation as they would not be admitted into the program without the required education prerequisites.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by MJM

Precious few bonuses have been handed out in recent years, and even so the company has to be profitable or meet certain targets for them to be paid, and they most certainly aren't at time and a half like the nurses and policemen are getting.

Similar bonus programs could be made for police officers. I'd fully support it. Bonus for coming in under budget as a department/unit, based on reduction of crime rates, man days missed, etc.

Paying each officer $5,000-$10,000 for hitting targets linked to job performance is a hell of a lot better than just dolling out 20-30K to a guy for being physically present. Will never happen though. Unions would never allow for the tax payer supplied gravy fountain to dry up.

I see you are an expert in all company bonus allocation and in police sciences, so, you know everything. Got it.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Wow. You are right. It sounds exactly like a private sector job in some firm downtown.

Although a degree is still valued with the CPS, they found those with degrees don't necessarily make good cops. So to equate education to salary, at least in the police world doesn't really make sense. The move is towards older applicants with plenty of life experience who can, or at least, have experience resolving conflict.

As you like to use anecdoctal stories, so do I. I know 2 guys that go to work downtown in some financial firm. One got there because his dad pulled some strings the other has a few years in some arts program in university and got there because he was recognized as having a knack for investments decisions. See what I did there?

You mention pensions. Do you have any idea what a cop pays into their pensions every month? More then some mortgages.

You don't seem to set on seeing the other side of the equation. Compensation is not solely based on education.

Don't bother with him Bent, this guy is completely out to lunch. What we call a "know it all".

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by MJM

Paying each officer $5,000-$10,000 for hitting targets linked to job performance is a hell of a lot better than just dolling out 20-30K to a guy for being physically present. Will never happen though. Unions would never allow for the tax payer supplied gravy fountain to dry up.

What targets can you even set for a cop considering that having someone in uniform on the corner in of itself reduces crime?

Wouldn't the assesment process also cost a crapload because the evaluation would be very subjective?

There isn't a bottom line in the policing world that can easily be related to job performance. The incentives might also lead to huge negative externalities.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

What targets can you even set for a cop considering that having someone in uniform on the corner in of itself reduces crime?

Wouldn't the assesment process also cost a crapload because the evaluation would be very subjective?

There isn't a bottom line in the policing world that can easily be related to job performance. The incentives might also lead to huge negative externalities.

How is it hard to track? Reduction of crime rates in specific units, reduction of man days missed, costs within a unit, etc. All information readily available. How would any of these lead to negative externalities? And even if there was a cost to track, i'm sure it's a hell of lot cheaper than paying some guy time and a half to stand around the concourse at a Flames game.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

No one has argued it because everyone knows they are.

No they aren't, not in the manner that "professional" is being used here.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by MJM

How is it hard to track? Reduction of crime rates in specific units, reduction of man days missed, costs within a unit, etc. All information readily available. How would any of these lead to negative externalities? And even if there was a cost to track, i'm sure it's a hell of lot cheaper than paying some guy time and a half to stand around the concourse at a Flames game.

If bonus was tied to crime rates then how well do you think the police would enforce the law? There would be an incentive to underreport and underenforce and they would get paid more to do a poorer job. Also it has been discussed at length how the Flames pay for police officers to sit around on the concourse.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I see you are an expert in all company bonus allocation and in police sciences, so, you know everything. Got it.

Actually, I am an expert in company bonus allocation. Paid pretty well to know what i'm talking about on the subject.

It doesn't take an expert in police sciences to see that having some sort of a bonus program would save the tax payers a hell of a lot of money rather than paying officers time and a half or double time to work as much OT as they can to pad their wallet. If the city really wanted to get nasty, they could suspense all OT much like the Provincial Government is beginning to do, and hire additional officers at a considerably lower cost to fill those shifts.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MJM

How is it hard to track? Reduction of crime rates in specific units, reduction of man days missed, costs within a unit, etc. All information readily available. How would any of these lead to negative externalities? And even if there was a cost to track, i'm sure it's a hell of lot cheaper than paying some guy time and a half to stand around the concourse at a Flames game.

How would rewarding police officers for a reduction in crime rates lead to negative externalities? I don't know, maybe through the introduction of a reward for turning things that would have been a crime in the past into a warning or a lesser charge?

Let's see, as an officer I can either take choice a and report this as usual, thereby damaging my chances of making a bonus this year, or b turn a blind eye and have some extra cash in my pocket at the end of the year. I'd like to think that most current officers would choose a regardless, but the fact that the option even exists is an absolutely stupid way to operate a police force.

Originally Posted by MJM

Precious few bonuses have been handed out in recent years, and even so the company has to be profitable or meet certain targets for them to be paid, and they most certainly aren't at time and a half like the nurses and policemen are getting.

Similar bonus programs could be made for police officers. I'd fully support it. Bonus for coming in under budget as a department/unit, based on reduction of crime rates, man days missed, etc.

Paying each officer $5,000-$10,000 for hitting targets linked to job performance is a hell of a lot better than just dolling out 20-30K to a guy for being physically present. Will never happen though. Unions would never allow for the tax payer supplied gravy fountain to dry up.

Really? Simply by being present? You are clueless. What do you think police do exactly?

How bout this, you keep to the dangerous, high paced, chaotic world of your office cubical and cops will keep to their "being present" jobs that is the world of policing.... afterall, you would know.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

If bonus was tied to crime rates then how well do you think the police would enforce the law? There would be an incentive to underreport and underenforce and they would get paid more to do a poorer job. Also it has been discussed at length how the Flames pay for police officers to sit around on the concourse.

Do the Flames pay for the increased police presence on 17th and on major traffic routes before and after games? Nope.

Citizens aren't going to stop reporting crimes, and if the policemen are the professionals and moral people they say they are, they aren't going to stop doing their job.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by MJM

Actually, I am an expert in company bonus allocation. Paid pretty well to know what i'm talking about on the subject.

It doesn't take an expert in police sciences to see that having some sort of a bonus program would save the tax payers a hell of a lot of money rather than paying officers time and a half or double time to work as much OT as they can to pad their wallet. If the city really wanted to get nasty, they could suspense all OT much like the Provincial Government is beginning to do, and hire additional officers at a considerably lower cost to fill those shifts.

Dude, you must be doing a piss poor job if these are the ideas you are coming up with for police. Go learn the issues in the policing field and then come back and we will talk.

The simple fact that you are trying to label yourself an expert because you work in the private sector speaks volumes.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by MJM

Do the Flames pay for the increased police presence on 17th and on major traffic routes before and after games? Nope.

Citizens aren't going to stop reporting crimes, and if the policemen are the professionals and moral people they say they are, they aren't going to stop doing their job.

All people respond to incentives. For a compensation expert I'm surprised you don't see the "rewarding B, while hoping for A" conundrum crime-rate based bonuses would create.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by MJM

How is it hard to track? Reduction of crime rates in specific units, reduction of man days missed, costs within a unit, etc. All information readily available. How would any of these lead to negative externalities? And even if there was a cost to track, i'm sure it's a hell of lot cheaper than paying some guy time and a half to stand around the concourse at a Flames game.

The flames pay the double time for CPS to "stand around" the concourse. Its not a tax payer funded job. What's so wrong with someone who does all this extra OT on their own days off and the money for most of these duties isn't even being funded by tax payers but rather a private corporation.

I know it sounds so cliche, but without experience in the field, you can't relate. You're making vague statements without even knowing how CPS and their OT work.

Originally Posted by jar_e

The flames pay the double time for CPS to "stand around" the concourse. Its not a tax payer funded job. What's so wrong with someone who does all this extra OT on their own days off and the money for most of these duties isn't even being funded by tax payers but rather a private corporation.

I know it sounds so cliche, but without experience in the field, you can't relate. You're making vague statements without even knowing how CPS and their OT work.

Not to mention knowledge of the Police Act or any other legislative doctrine relating to police.

If only life were as simple as his cozy little office cubical.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by MJM

If the city really wanted to get nasty, they could suspense all OT much like the Provincial Government is beginning to do, and hire additional officers at a considerably lower cost to fill those shifts.

Heaven forbid you suspend OT when there's a shooting or an arrest that someone is dealing with and it requires them to do overtime at the end of their shift. May as well just let the criminals free at that point.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by MJM

Professionals are generally not paid overtime. Why are police, doctors, nurses, etc. an exception to this? Professionals are paid a salary, there should be no overtime on this.

I wish doctors were paid overtime

[MJM]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

I wish doctors were paid overtime

Must depends on the field. My neighbour is a surgeon and he gets paid for whatever hour he works.

Doctors are a professional though, they shouldn't get paid overtime. I don't see how anyone can claim to be a professional in one hand, and demand paid overtime in the other.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by jar_e

Heaven forbid you suspend OT when there's a shooting or an arrest that someone is dealing with and it requires them to do overtime at the end of their shift. May as well just let the criminals free at that point.

But my house is burning down. Sorry lady, I'm not allowed to work overtime, you'll have to wait for the next crew to get here.

Why are you stopping CPR on my mommy. Sorry kiddo, but my shift is up, another crew is on the way, now the front door is which way?

Wow, this time sensitive evidence could really break open this ca . . . (Flintstones whistle) Yaabba Dabba Doo . . .

Nurse where are you going . . . for god sakes I need you to keep giving this patient an open chest heart massage. Sorry sir, my 8 hours is up, I would page nurse Betty on the way out. . . . but then I would have to apply for overtime and get crapped on by the government.