[News] Tkachuk, Gretzky, and Comm. Bettman set to be part of POTUS Trump's fitness committee

[Haplo]

Originally Posted by jayswin

What do you mean by risk singling out an individual? Like do you mean you know of an individual in a sport that you would be outing as transgender that the sporting world doesn't know is trans? I'm very confused at what you're getting at there.

Nope, I meant there are trans women that already have got a lot of publicity in certain sports. I didn't think it would have been better if had chosen an example where the discussion risk being about them. Combat sports is the most obvious example because there is an injury risk involved in hypothetically letting a person with male physique compete against someone who has not.

[Haplo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You'd be hard pressed to find any. Because it's such an insignificant number.

I don't like this argument very much. There is no issue because there are so few? Instead of having the discussion and having a clear policy in place, it will continue to create controversy with media publicity and hate. Is that beneficial to the person involved? There will certainly be more trans athletes in the future, including in combat sports.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Goriders

How did this thread not end up in the off topic section. It’s got all of the associated venom.

Explain please?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Haplo

I don't like this argument very much. There is no issue because there are so few? Instead of having the discussion and having a clear policy in place, it will continue to create controversy with media publicity and hate. Is that beneficial to the person involved? There will certainly be more trans athletes in the future, including in combat sports.

Why, in your opinion?

[FanSince'01]

Originally Posted by Haplo

I don't like this argument very much. There is no issue because there are so few? Instead of having the discussion and having a clear policy in place, it will continue to create controversy with media publicity and hate. Is that beneficial to the person involved? There will certainly be more trans athletes in the future, including in combat sports.

You're partially right and partially wrong here. You're right in the sense that if there isn't some sort of directive put in place, with respect to trans kids participating in sports, that there will continue to be this hate and division spewed against an innocent population of kids who are just trying to fit in and live their lives.

But the issue is that you can't just make a policy on which trans kids are okay to play sports with their chosen gender and which aren't without actual data to back it up. And while, yes, the data is relatively sparse right now, the small amount of data that does exist shows that trans people playing in sports is a non-issue with respect to competitive fairness. It just is. End of story.

So yeah, there should be a policy: Until there is evidence to the contrary, leave trans kids/athletes the f*** alone. Their life is hard enough as it is already.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Explain please?

They were called out on their willful ignorance and they'd rather settle into victimhood than do the work.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Haplo

Nope, I meant there are trans women that already have got a lot of publicity in certain sports. I didn't think it would have been better if had chosen an example where the discussion risk being about them. Combat sports is the most obvious example because there is an injury risk involved in hypothetically letting a person with male physique compete against someone who has not.

Who?

[zztim81]

The first thing i think of when i see this press release and the list is:

"Mandelbaum! Mandelbaum! Mandelbaum!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6zsAyoRA1I

[Haplo]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Why, in your opinion?

Because the number of people with gender dysphoria have risen significantly.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Haplo

I don't like this argument very much. There is no issue because there are so few? Instead of having the discussion and having a clear policy in place, it will continue to create controversy with media publicity and hate. Is that beneficial to the person involved? There will certainly be more trans athletes in the future, including in combat sports.

There's no huge public policy issue because there's so few. It's rage bait by the right wing, which hurts a tiny minority for no good reason.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Haplo

Because the number of people with gender dysphoria have risen significantly.

There’s not much evidence that is true. The number of people diagnosed has risen significantly, but to understand what that actually means requires context (like greater understanding, societal acceptance, etc). Unless you actually believe all of a sudden more people experience gender dysphoria than ever before as opposed to more people feeling comfortable expressing that and seeking out answers than ever before, which is an odd take.

But let’s pretend that’s true anyway. So what? Draw the line from more people with gender dysphoria to more trans athletes in combat sports for me.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

There’s not much evidence that is true. The number of people diagnosed has risen significantly, but to understand what that actually means requires context (like greater understanding, societal acceptance, etc). Unless you actually believe all of a sudden more people experience gender dysphoria than ever before as opposed to more people feeling comfortable expressing that and seeking out answers than ever before, which is an odd take.

But let’s pretend that’s true anyway. So what? Draw the line from more people with gender dysphoria to more trans athletes in combat sports for me.

I know of only one trans boxer and it's a trans man, so literally the opposite of the "safety" issue.

[redflamesfan08]

Originally Posted by MrButtons

I'll happily join you; not with politics and this isnt about the NCAA, just highscool. I always have this ready to go whenever this comes up in sports

I'd encourage y'all to look at this letter the Gov from Utah wrote back in 2022.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022...-ban-veto.html

Its already been said, but it deserves to be said again and again until this becomes a non issue.


Great Post MrButtons, and great thoughts from the Governor of Utah. Lets just be good people, and be kind to other people.

[Haplo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There's no huge public policy issue because there's so few. It's rage bait by the right wing, which hurts a tiny minority for no good reason.

Internationally there are policies in many sports. Probably controlled by MAGA or equally nuts right wingers, right?

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

There’s not much evidence that is true. The number of people diagnosed has risen significantly, but to understand what that actually means requires context (like greater understanding, societal acceptance, etc). Unless you actually believe all of a sudden more people experience gender dysphoria than ever before as opposed to more people feeling comfortable expressing that and seeking out answers than ever before, which is an odd take.

But let’s pretend that’s true anyway. So what? Draw the line from more people with gender dysphoria to more trans athletes in combat sports for me.

Nice use of straw man argumentation . More people diagnosed means more will choose to transition which in turn means it will be more common everywhere in society, including sports. That's not rocket science.

[FanSince'01]

Originally Posted by Haplo

Nice use of straw man argumentation . More people diagnosed means more will choose to transition which in turn means it will be more common everywhere in society, including sports. That's not rocket science.

They didn't straw man you, though, as you said "the number of people with gender dysphoria" rather than "the number of transgender people" and those are two separate things. We absolutely cannot say with certainty that there are more people with gender dysphoria now then there were years ago for the exact reasons they gave in their post.

If you meant to say the number of transgender people has risen significantly, then you would be correct but you also misrepresented your own position there.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Haplo

Internationally there are policies in many sports. Probably controlled by MAGA or equally nuts right wingers, right?



Nice use of straw man argumentation . More people diagnosed means more will choose to transition which in turn means it will be more common everywhere in society, including sports. That's not rocket science.

It’s not a strawman, I’m pointing out facts.

Gender dysphoria =/= transgender. Most people with gender dysphoria will never even identify as transgender, let alone pursue medical transition. Hell, it’s not all transgender people have gender dysphoria. It would probably be helpful to your position if you actually had some knowledge over these conditions and how they relate/overlap (and how they don’t).

There’s also no evidence that more people transitioning will lead to more transgender athletes in high level sports. Assuming that participation would mirror population ignores all the unique roadblocks and difficulties transgender people face that make pursuing high level athletics extremely difficult (and are all on top of the things everyone else faces).

So it seems silly to trot out a conclusion without really understanding the topic at all. Perhaps more research is in order.

It may not be rocket science, but it is a mixture of psychology, neuroscience, biology, and sociology.

And, speaking of science, there are studies that show that not only do transgender athletes already face discrimination from both a policy standpoint and a cultural standpoint in competitive sport, but they also lack the kinds of advantages most people automatically assume they should have.

So if you want to make an argument for why the conversation should be had about adding even stricter policies, you’re going to have to do a significantly better job than you’ve done, and I would personally start with learning the basics like what gender dysphoria and transgender even are.

[EN FUEGO]

Originally Posted by Haplo

There will certainly be more trans athletes in the future, including in combat sports.

I'd be curious how many trans folks you actually know personally? This idea that "there will be more and more" seems to indicate that you think folks are encouraged to transition by society and/or will transition because it's "trendy". Through being a musician/performer I've become pretty close with a lot of folks who've gone through this, and I can assure you that it's not a fun or "cool" process. Many of them have also been cut off by their families because of it. Zero of the folks I know were athletes or had any aspirations to dominate womens sports.

[jaikorven]

I attribute this suggestion similar to gays coming out of the closet. It is not a favourable idea in most areas of society, so they are reluctant to come forward and go through the process, but as society becomes more educated, they then become more open to it, then more will opt to consider moving forward with the process, if that is how they truly view themselves.

Not worded very well, so hopefully it makes sense what I am trying to say.

[EN FUEGO]

Originally Posted by jaikorven

I attribute this suggestion similar to gays coming out of the closet. It is not a favourable idea in most areas of society, so they are reluctant to come forward and go through the process, but as society becomes more educated, they then become more open to it, then more will opt to consider moving forward with the process, if that is how they truly view themselves.

Not worded very well, so hopefully it makes sense what I am trying to say.

Sure, and here in the US, things are moving pretty quickly in reverse in that regard on the issue of trans folks. The most effective election ads in the suburbs were about prisoners getting transition surgeries and "men in women's sports". Basically, we are getting "less and less educated" on many topics down here (trans stuff, climate change, vaccines, etc), unfortunately.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by jaikorven

I attribute this suggestion similar to gays coming out of the closet. It is not a favourable idea in most areas of society, so they are reluctant to come forward and go through the process, but as society becomes more educated, they then become more open to it, then more will opt to consider moving forward with the process, if that is how they truly view themselves.

Not worded very well, so hopefully it makes sense what I am trying to say.

I think so, yes. More people may openly identify as transgender, more people may be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, more people may seek treatment (whether therapy, medication, or surgery) but none of that necessarily indicates an increase in the percentage of people who would otherwise have gender dysphoria or privately identify as transgender, but rather an increase in acceptance, the ability to properly diagnose, and treatment options.

There are definitely parallels to the gay rights movement. These people have always existed, but as restrictions lower and acceptance increases, less people have reason to hide it.

Originally Posted by EN FUEGO

Sure, and here in the US, things are moving pretty quickly in reverse in that regard on the issue of trans folks. The most effective election ads in the suburbs were about prisoners getting transition surgeries and "men in women's sports". Basically, we are getting "less and less educated" on many topics down here (trans stuff, climate change, vaccines, etc), unfortunately.

This is also true, and why the conclusion that a future with more trans athletes in sport is inevitable is misinformed and borderline ignorant. Politicians and policy makers are actively trying to make things harder, not easier, by adding additional restrictions and demonizing this group. They want people to fear and hate these people, and they are very good at it.

It reminds me of a anti-trans poster here who read a story about a trans prisoner assaulting another prisoner. Their solution was not to separate and deal with the individual, or address the broader (much larger) issue of assaults in prisons (by fellow inmates, guards, etc), but to build a prison exclusively for trans inmates, not to protect them, but so they could only “score” on their own “team.” This was during the Biden era, so not someone emboldened by Trump and the most recent anti-trans rhetoric. Their solution wasn’t to address assault, but just to make sure the only people being assaulted were other trans people. I can only imagine how emboldened they feel now.

Acceptance and access is going backwards hard. Yet there are still people pretending to trans athletes are an issue that needs addressing. And it’s usually people who have never said a single word in support of the trans community.

If people like Haplo want to have a conversation, have that conversation. Worry about whether trans people feel safe, supported, and have proper access to care. Issues that actually matter today. Then you can worry about the decimal of a percent who may show up in high level sports one day.