Toronto to get black-focused school

[ken0042]

I guess I read the post differently than you, Agamemnon.

I read it as "Let's get down to the root of the problem and fix it; as opposed to slapping a band-aid on it."

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

So, black 'cultures, values, backgrounds' cause 40% dropout rates? What are some aspects of black culture and values that cause this?

Absentee fathers. Guns and violence.

Aren't they pushing through a curriculum/school that is more relevant to their experience/lifestyle? Seems like they're trying different solutions...

It sounds like they passing the buck. 40% of our kids are dropping out of school, therefore, the schools need to be fixed. That's the easy way out.

The real problem is these kids are growing up poor, without fathers and they come from a violent culture.

So, is it because they're black that they need 'instant gratification' and they're doing poorly? You don't think history, or systemic social & economic inequality come into play? Are there any white kids out there who are just looking for instat gratification, or who do badly in school? Or is that mostly a black thing?

It's definitely not because of the colour of their skin or any other genetic factor. And spare me the systemic social and economic garbage. The place they've come from has screwed them up far worse then where they are now.

It is due to their environment they grow up in and clustering them together is only going to make things worse.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I guess I read the post differently than you, Agamemnon.

I read it as "Let's get down to the root of the problem and fix it; as opposed to slapping a band-aid on it."

So... reforming the educational options in Toronto is not getting down to the root of the problem? I see one potential solution presented... how would others suggest we get to the root of the problem? Not allowing them to have children was one that was presented... any others?

[urban1]

How about better immigration policies? How about not letting criminals into Canada? How not letting criminals back into Canada who have been deported from Canada once, twice, or more times?

[ken0042]

I guess my thinking is that if 40% of one group is dropping out; then putting those kids all together will simply re-enforce the fact that dropping out is the "norm"; as it seems like all sorts of kids are doing it. Might make one kid who is on the verge say "fata it- If Steve dropped out, and so did Trevor, then why should I still hang around."

As for the "not allowing them to have kids"- it really isn't a matter of not allowing them. As you pointed out this is a free country. I don't have the answer but perhaps we need to be shunning those who get pregnant as teens a little more; and try to stop the cycles of poverty. Does the black kid who drops out do it because he wants to support his family? If so, we need to address that and show the kids that dropping out to get a minimum wage job will result in a lifetime of minimum wage jobs; whereas staying in school a few more years will help end the cycle.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I guess my thinking is that if 40% of one group is dropping out; then putting those kids all together will simply re-enforce the fact that dropping out is the "norm"; as it seems like all sorts of kids are doing it. Might make one kid who is on the verge say "fata it- If Steve dropped out, and so did Trevor, then why should I still hang around."

But isn't the point of the new school to specifically address and possibly prevent 40% dropout rates? They've recognized the rate is high, and have presented a possible solution (the new school). Maybe an education more relevant to their lifestyle/experience/culture will help reduce dropout rates. If this solution is wrong or unhelpful... what's a better alternative?

[ken0042]

I suppose for me it brings about the question of why these kids are dropping out. If they are dropping out because there aren't any courses about their own heritage; or that school is boring, then this has a chance. But if the reason kids are dropping out is something else, then all this will do is be a waste of money.

The kids that I went to school with who dropped out did so either for economic reasons (ie- needed to suppliment the family income); or because they were failing anyways and didn't see the point in continuing.

In either of the above situations; I would think that school funding would be better served if they offerred courses to help these kids succeed. Not many jobs look for qualifications in "Black History", but instead if they were based more on trades these kids would have a chance. Teach them to be mechanics, carpenters, plumbers, Cable Tv installers, truck drivers; whatever.

And by addressing the needs of these kids, you can also address the needs of all the other kids who would normally drop out for the same reasons; but happen to have a different skin colour.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

So... reforming the educational options in Toronto is not getting down to the root of the problem? I see one potential solution presented... how would others suggest we get to the root of the problem? Not allowing them to have children was one that was presented... any others?

How about military style boarding schools set in rural areas for kids that are unmotivated and disinterested in the current system. Get them out of the environment that is fostering the problems.

While it might not be financially viable, I think it's got to be cheaper to board these kids for a couple of years while they're young then to be boarding some of them later in life in prisons.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

How about military style boarding schools set in rural areas for kids that are unmotivated and disinterested in the current system. Get them out of the environment that is fostering the problems.

While it might not be financially viable, I think it's got to be cheaper to board these kids for a couple of years while they're young then to be boarding some of them later in life in prisons.

Don't some of these 'boot-camp' type facilities already exist? You have to be willing to go... it may be that offering a strictly regimented military-esque lifestyle isn't appealing to poor urbanites (assuming it was free to attend). I suppose you could try and force them into these schools, but I think we've been there already (residential schools) and it's not something Canadian ideals support (as far as I'm aware).

The solution has to be realistic. Forcing them to stop having children or into military schools isn't realistic. Setting up a school that caters to their environment/background/lifestyle IS realistic.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

So, black 'cultures, values, backgrounds' cause 40% dropout rates? What are some aspects of black culture and values that cause this?

I am not sure if this is an issue in Canada or TO in particular but I have heard some blacks in the States, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Jason Whitlock come to mind, talk about how often education/sounding educated etc. is often looked down on in many black communities. The gangster rap lifestyle is idolized as well. I imagine that this would be the case in the poorer communities which would make up most of the 40%.

If that is the case is grouping these kids together going to work to encourage them to get educated? Is teaching black history going to work to overcome the stereotypes against education that some people have?

Also, I would like to hear more about how this school will be different. It would seem that there would be a lot of temptation/incentive to see that the students succeed and I would be concerned that perhaps this would come from grading standards perhaps being lowered.

I have had the issue with the U of L and their requirements in allowing Native students in with lower requirements. I know it helps to get a group of students that may not have had the chance or same opportunities to get to University, but if they do not have the skills/knowledge to then succeed are they that further ahead in life at the end of the day?

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Don't some of these 'boot-camp' type facilities already exist?

As far as I know they don't exist for kids who aren't troublemakers but rather just going through the motions of the school system.

You have to be willing to go... it may be that offering a strictly regimented military-esque lifestyle isn't appealing to poor urbanites (assuming it was free to attend).

You have the school system sit down with the mother and explain the situation. Little Johnny can either go away for awhile so that he can be in an environment that will give him little choice but to focus on academics or he can go through the motions, drop out at 16 and join a gang. If the mother can't make the correct choice there's nothing else anyone can do for the kid.

I suppose you could try and force them into these schools, but I think we've been there already (residential schools) and it's not something Canadian ideals support (as far as I'm aware).

That was a whole different situation where kids where picked based upon the colour of their skin. What I'm proposing wouldn't apply to just black kids. It would apply to all lower income kids at risk.

The solution has to be realistic. Forcing them to stop having children or into military schools isn't realistic. Setting up a school that caters to their environment/background/lifestyle IS realistic.

The solution has to solve the problem. The "solution" in this case is like treating a guy with flesh-eating disease by putting a band-aid on his wound. It is just trying to cover up what the real issues are.

[StoneCole]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

They should build several tall concrete apartment buildings with small windows and subsidized rent right next to this school so the kids don't have to walk far

...yeah let's call it Cabrini Green. Maybe they should create an afro-centric baseball league for kids too...they can call it "Little Negro League"

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

You have the school system sit down with the mother and explain the situation. Little Johnny can either go away for awhile so that he can be in an environment that will give him little choice but to focus on academics or he can go through the motions, drop out at 16 and join a gang. If the mother can't make the correct choice there's nothing else anyone can do for the kid.

Good idea. I think it could be called Operation: Pre-Emptive Prison.