As an Albertan, would you EVER support seperation from Canada? - Page 5 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Resolute 14 · 12-09-2005, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flame On

To me there seems to be different issues here. There's election reform or constitutional change, which is something that NO party is beating the drum for. Then there's the I hate the liberals and want the conservatives in complaint.
Canada is working as far as all of the first-past-the-post parties are concerned due to them all subscribing to that system.
To me its a case of sour grapes. I don't think we'd be hearing a peep of this if the Cons were in, except then it would be the same system in reverse with the larger majority of the country not liking the Cons who held power.
Anyway, judging by the poll at the top Alberta would not pass to seperate and then those people wanting it would have cause to rattle their sabres against the government of alberta cause it didn't go their way. Maybe their acerages, blocks, condos and streets would then seperate individually I don't know.

While obviously a ridiculously small sample, you still have 40% of the people who responded to this poll favoring seperatism. You dont think that should be a cause for concern to Canada? If the feds go after Alberta's money again, what do you think it would climb to?

And, you are half right regarding the current, established political parties. For the most part, they dont want change because the status quo works for them. The NDP wants PR in the Commons, simply because the NDP will never form a government, but PR will give them a lot more clout. The Conservatives want a EEE Senate, because the west would gain a proportionally greater share of power, and much of that would fall to the Conservatives. Dont touch the Commons though, as FPTP is the only way anyone wins a majority. The Liberals want no changes, because the current system is completely tilted in their favour.

That is why change has to begin at a provincial level. Alberta has the financial potential to force the rest of Canada (read: Ontario) to listen, but needs to start utilizing it. Seperation is an end game tactic, but one that the province has to be willing to take if we are ever going to convince the rest of Canada that changes are needed.

I have to ask, what does Ottawa give us that we couldnt do ourselves? What exactly is the benefit of being a part of Canada?

Cheese · 12-09-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shin Pad

What can we do about it?? We keep voting against the government, but it doesn't make any difference. We still get the same s**t rammed down our throats - as the East decides who will govern - not the west. I am sick of it. I would rather just Separate. Who really cares if we don't have manufacturing, etc. - we can buy whatever we need a lot cheaper from overseas than from the east anyway.

I understand your angst better than most here Shinpad...I have lived both sides. The threat of seperation is not the answer. What is needed from the west or from the Conservatives for that matter is a charismatic leader that is able to control the right wing nutcases in his party from putting their foot in their mouths EVERY ****ing election! Every election people are ready and willing to put their vote into the Conservatives...and every election stupid mistakes are made to keep them out. Thats the fault of Easterners? Hell Ive been embarrassed at times to admit I was a Conservative....and Im small C Conserv.
The right has been fragmented for a LONG time now...itll take time to get it together after the boondoggle that was and is still Reform...after all as I have stated before...the POLICY maker of the old Reforms is the leader of the Conservatives....a major blunder. Once the Cs lose this election...which they will...hopefully it will be a minority again and hopefully the Cs will remove this wart and try again....and better yet...hopefully they get it right this time.
So the answer is for all the PC supporters...look inward...find your answer...but it best look and sound a hell of a lot better than it does now.

Resolute 14 · 12-09-2005, 01:40 PM

Why do the Conservatives need to change for the West/Alberta to have a better deal within Canada?

Why can't the Liberals change? More to the point, why can't Canada change?

RougeUnderoos · 12-09-2005, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Why do the Conservatives need to change for the West/Alberta to have a better deal within Canada?

Maybe because it's the path of least resistance? Get a Conservative party that all, you know, conservatives, will vote for and you've got your change.

A dud for a leader who is hung up on irrelevant social issues doesn't help the cause.

Neeper · 12-09-2005, 01:55 PM

I don't think Alberta shoud separate, but I think Quebec should leave.

Cowperson · 12-09-2005, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Why do the Conservatives need to change for the West/Alberta to have a better deal within Canada?

Why can't the Liberals change? More to the point, why can't Canada change?

Maybe you should listen to the customers and try selling them something they want to buy because if you don't, you'll go out of business.

Why can't Canada change? That's the problem with the Conservative Party - as its currently led - right there.

Cowperson

Fozzie_DeBear · 12-09-2005, 02:19 PM

Hell no I would never want to seperate! Our country is far from perfect, and yet it is still one of the most highly respected nations in the world.

Nothing personal, but separtists (local and Quebec) don't realize how good they have it here. And this talk of brinksmanship...using seperation as a tool to forge a better deal with Ottawa...it reminds me of a screechy spouse who threatens to leave the relationship whenever they feel slighted.

Give your head a shake!
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ROLL A JOINT

Resolute 14 · 12-09-2005, 02:29 PM

That's a simplistic answer, Cowperson. The Conservatives have been evolving for over a decade. Reform --> Canadian Alliance --> Conservative Party of Canada --> probably more to the left if the Liberals win this one.

However, your answer doesnt address my question.

My greatest complaint about Canada is that I am effectively disenfranchised. In a normal (read: majority) government, the ruling party has 100% control, the overwhelming majority of that control is based around the Golden Horsehoe, and parts of Quebec.

And so, I ask, why does the party that Alberta supports have to change for Alberta to have an opportunity for a more representative government? Why won't the Liberals work towards a fairer system of government? Why dont Canadians demand it?

Why not? Because the only Canadians that matter like the system the way it is.

Canada's flaws are far more fundamental than partisan politics.

Resolute 14 · 12-09-2005, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Hell no I would never want to seperate! Our country is far from perfect, and yet it is still one of the most highly respected nations in the world.

Nothing personal, but separtists (local and Quebec) don't realize how good they have it here. And this talk of brinksmanship...using seperation as a tool to forge a better deal with Ottawa...it reminds me of a screechy spouse who threatens to leave the relationship whenever they feel slighted.

Give your head a shake!

What does Canada offer us that we wouldnt be able to achieve ourselves?

Thunderball · 12-09-2005, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheese

The whole question of Alberta seperating is just about the dumbest thing Ive heard. You might get by for a little while...BUT...and this is a BIG but...Alberta has no manufacturing to speak of...I dont think the rest of Canada would look highly on Alberta as a country and provide it with cheap manufactured goods.
The Billions hidden away in the heritage fund would trickle away to nothing within a few years leaving Alberta as a 3rd world couintry IMO. Alberta has no Harbour....no Manufacturing to speak of...no Major rail system of its own...just oil. I guess those who want to seperate could swing a deal with the Saudi's for protection if you like. IF you dont like the politics then get on the bandwagon and do something about it...pouting about it and leaving the party just means you are a quitter.

Firstly... Alberta would be able to lure businesses away from Canada and the US with disgusting low taxes on corporations because of oil royalties... eventually, (assuming a properly managed country), oil and gas would slowly be phased out by banking, aerospace, computers, biotech, manufacturing, and most importantly, new sources of energy. Who else but the big oil companies are going to have the financial capital to fund new energy initiatives, *cough* BP... beyond petroleum *cough*

Secondly, the billions in the fund would grow to hundreds of billions during the life of the oilpatch, and one would essentially be able to live off the interest (see Norway). It wouldn't be spent.

Thirdly, harbors are increasingly irrelevant in an air freight world. Plus, what would stop Alberta from making a deal with BC or even the US if it was deemed necessary to have access to one. Luxembourg has no port and its one of the richest countries in the world.

Fourthly, CP is an Alberta company. Since the Alberta leg is crucial to Canada's rail system, I suspect a deal would be reached allowing both sides to freely traverse the other's territory. BC would leave confederation if it didn't happen.

Lastly, 100 years of BS have lead people to want separation cause its assumed that its time for the last resort since nothing else works. Alberta should not have to change for Canada, especially since it foots the bill for it. Its impossible to change a system that the majority either likes, or is ambivalent to.

mennoknight · 12-09-2005, 03:00 PM

As a BC'er, I'd find it amusing to watch you guys separate, fail, and come crawling back. Circumstances change, and anyone who thinks separation is a good idea is extremely short-sighted.

Resolute 14 · 12-09-2005, 03:03 PM

We've succeeded in spite of Canada for some time now. What makes you think that we would fail if we went our own way?

I would also suggest your attitude is a big reason why so many people are indifferent towards Canada. Your arrogance will be your undoing.

Fozzie_DeBear · 12-09-2005, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

What does Canada offer us that we wouldnt be able to achieve ourselves?

.......International legitimacy

.......an economic safety net should oil plummet (it CAN happen y'know)

.......a partner in international agreements

.......a partner for domestic infrastructure projects

.......a big suckhole for money...ahhh...erhmmmm...

I guess that, for me, what Canada stands for is more important that some economic inefficiencies. How rich do we need to be?
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tjinaz · 12-09-2005, 04:01 PM

If Alberta separated I am sure the US would love to make it the 51st state. Keep the Oil money, use the cash to subsidize healthcare and get equal representation in the US senate and Congress. US states have a pretty wide latitude in what they do with their own money. At a minimum the US would quickly recognize the government and have a draft NAFTA agreement in hand to keep the oil flowing to be signed by whoever was in charge.

At that point if any foreign Military tried to interupt the flow of Oil... well you saw what happened in Kuwait.

CaramonLS · 12-09-2005, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

I guess that, for me, what Canada stands for is more important that some economic inefficiencies. How rich do we need to be?

You know for a lot of us, this isn't just about money.

And I really mean that.

RougeUnderoos · 12-09-2005, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjinaz

If Alberta separated I am sure the US would love to make it the 51st state. Keep the Oil money, use the cash to subsidize healthcare and get equal representation in the US senate and Congress. US states have a pretty wide latitude in what they do with their own money. At a minimum the US would quickly recognize the government and have a draft NAFTA agreement in hand to keep the oil flowing to be signed by whoever was in charge.

At that point if any foreign Military tried to interupt the flow of Oil... well you saw what happened in Kuwait.

Well you've convinced me.

Fozzie_DeBear · 12-09-2005, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

You know for a lot of us, this isn't just about money.

And I really mean that.

Ok please tell me honestly what is it that is worth risking the breakup of an astoundingly successful country?
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Zarathustra · 12-09-2005, 04:43 PM

No, I wouldn't support separation.

Snakeeye, if you want to be taken seriously, you might want to spell separation correctly.

CaramonLS · 12-09-2005, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Ok please tell me honestly what is it that is worth risking the breakup of an astoundingly successful country?

Political Autonomy and the security of this province?

If Tranny can re-post his story about his personal experiences with the NEP, and how he was royally bent over by the Canadian Government and this policy.

This isn't just recent situations which have arose which have caused this rift between Alberta and the rest of Canada.

Resolute 14 · 12-09-2005, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

.......International legitimacy

.......an economic safety net should oil plummet (it CAN happen y'know)

.......a partner in international agreements

.......a partner for domestic infrastructure projects

.......a big suckhole for money...ahhh...erhmmmm...

I guess that, for me, what Canada stands for is more important that some economic inefficiencies. How rich do we need to be?

Alberta could build it's own reputation internationally, it could join and negotiate international agreements. We have the money to pay for our own infrastructure, and seperation would give us $10 billion a year more.

I ask this question because every time this argument comes up, someone always chimes in with "We are lucky to live in such a great country." as a reason to simply be happy with our situation.

I've always wondered what exactly it is that makes us lucky to be Canadian. An independent Alberta would still be one of the richest nations in the world - richer than Canada itself - and that wealth could be sustained indefinitely with proper management of the Heritage Trust Fund (which the Klein Tories have not done), so the benefit of being Canadian is not a financial one.

I just do not see what it is that we can only have if we are part of Canada.