[CP Story] Makings Sense of the Lucic Trade

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Who cares?

Do you have an actual point?

Do you not think Lucic is a physical player who hits a lot?

I think he hits a lot because the Oilers didn't have the puck a lot...

I am actually for this trade, but I am nauseated by the people who would have told you that you were out of your mind if this trade was proposed 5 days go, and yet those same people now try to spin this as some sort of 'best case scenario'

And those who have stuck to their convictions, like Transplant99 (who's xmas card list I am certainly not on), was treated abhorrently and hasn't been heard from since.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

I think he hits a lot because the Oilers didn't have the puck a lot...

I am actually for this trade, but I am nauseated by the people who would have told you were were out of your mind if this trade was proposed 5 days go, and yet those same people now try to spin this as some sort of 'best case scenario'

Yeah, well, amid the noise, there is a better understanding emerging.

Nobody was looking at advanced stats, linemates, cap hits, actual cash outlay (!) seriously before it happened.

Now there is a reason to.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by カナダ人です

Sorry but I don't buy it. Much of this is predicated on "toughness", but in today's NHL "toughness" has been re-defined. I would argue a guy like Garnet Hathaway is just as "tough" as Lucic. He can hit, fight, and actually contributes. Lucic meanwhile, at 31 years old, has regressed hard and can't contribute anymore. And who is he going to fight?

The Flames should have just bought Neal out and kept Hathaway (He signed @ 1.5M AAV). That way they actually save cap space and are equally as "tough". Let alone the expansion draft...

How many fights did Lucic have last season? TWO (2)! The same number as Hathaway. Lucic is an anchor that cannot keep up in today's NHL and doesn't even have anyone left to fight. (And for the record last season he fought peluso and gabriel, neither of which are likely in the league next season...)

1) Hathaway was NEVER a deterrent against anyone. Nobody is scared of Hathaway, and I can only remember a couple of fights that he actually won. I liked him as a player, but he is probably still not as good of an actual hockey player as Lucic. I would say Hathaway's career year was in large measure to knowing that if he didn't find a way to stick this year, he would be out of the league, and the other part thanks to Mangiapane and Ryan.


2) Lucic doesn't HAVE to fight to be effective. Is he going to stop Gaudreau from having his wrists slashed? It is arguable at best if he would have that impact - at least from the start. What he can do is start running guys through the boards and taunting the other team. Maybe go and make life miserable for some of their skill guys - remember, his stats tell you that he is reliably defensively, so it isn't like he is an outright goon out there that can become a liability.


I think you are thinking too much of Lucic as an outright goon. Yes, his contract stinks, but I argue that Neal's contract stinks even more. At least Lucic won't be bringing down every line he is on, and brings 'something' to the table, rather than nothing at all like Neal did. That's the point.


Hathaway priced himself out of Calgary. Good for him in getting paid more than he is worth, but I doubt very much that the Flames will really miss him. When the games got chippy, it wasn't like Hathaway was making an impact out there in putting a stop to it. Lucic can actually help to curb some shenanigans, and isn't shy to 'get a bit crazy' and put the fear of God into someone.



I still think that the Flames have had trouble with the Oilers in large part because of being intimidated and out-muscled. They are unquestionably a better team. The juxtaposition of the Flames and Oilers games was startling to me a number of nights in how the Oilers seemed to have their way with the Flames physically. I don't want another incident where Tkachuk has a goon draped all over him while he is lying on the ice. I don't want the Flames' goaltender having to stick up for himself when the other team's tough guy takes a few shots (and it was Lucic that did that), without any sort of an answer back.


If toughness is all he brings, then that trade was worth it, as all Neal was bringing was the incredible skill of bringing everyone else down that he played with. I think you will be surprised by how much you won't hate Lucic on the ice when you actually see him - as long as you keep an open mind. Yes, the contract sucks, but at least he will help this team rather than hurt it like Neal was doing.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Yeah, well, amid the noise, there is a better understanding emerging.

Nobody was looking at advanced stats, linemates, cap hits, actual cash outlay (!) seriously before it happened.

Now there is a reason to.

I did however watch Lucic play last season he looked like one of the worst players in the league.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Did I not just say exactly what you wrote here, apart from the fit?

They are both bad players and Neal would likely have been riding the pine just the same as Lucic will on a lot of nights. And Neal is probably going on to score a bunch of goals just from McDavid bouncing things off his ass. So right there it’s a bad deal. The Flames lost. And I get that it’s one that had to be made if Edwards told Treliving he was done paying for UFA mistakes not to play here.

I just don’t get all the rationalizing and “toughness” talk that now shows up in these discussions like it somehow might make the team better. It is not 2011 anymore and Lucic’s brand of toughness is no longer the norm. He is a $5 million pugilist and nothing more. There’s no need to try and “make sense” of anything.

The Flames has a disgruntled player and a cheap owner. So Treliving was backed into a corner. But he backed himself into that corner and should rightly be held to account for making a really bad series of moves.

I’m not so much on the toughness bandwagon as others, but I think Lucic brings a lot more to his game than being a face puncher. I’ve watched a few BoA games that I’ve saved on my PVR in the last few days and isolated only Lucic’s shifts and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised with his overall game.

I thought for sure Tre had just acquired a pugilist as well. But from what I saw, he wins the majority of the puck battles he engages in which this team could definitely use especially along the boards and in the corners. He could also be a big addition on the PP2 unit as he’s almost immovable in front of the net. His ability to deflect the puck will probably be second only to Tkachuk. He’s actually not even as slow as I remembered. He can hold his own on the give and go and has surprisingly good vision.

The more shifts I’ve watched Lucic play, the more excited I am seeing him in Flames’ red. He might have struggled to produce playing with guys like Brodziak and other plugs which shouldn’t even be unexpected, but I could see linemates like Derek Ryan, Bennett or Jankowski improving his production year over year.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by zamler

I did however watch Lucic play last season he looked like one of the worst players in the league.

Fair.

Was he playing with really bad linemates on one of the worst teams in the league?

Ever had a crappy job with inept senior management, incompetent direct management, and working with a bunch of bums?

:-)

[zamler]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Fair.

Was he playing with really bad linemates on one of the worst teams in the league?

Ever had a crappy job with inept senior management, incompetent direct management, and working with a bunch of bums?

:-)

Fair point. How was he in LA when he was there I basically forgot the guy was playing.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

I think he hits a lot because the Oilers didn't have the puck a lot...

I am actually for this trade, but I am nauseated by the people who would have told you that you were out of your mind if this trade was proposed 5 days go, and yet those same people now try to spin this as some sort of 'best case scenario'

And those who have stuck to their convictions, like Transplant99 (who's xmas card list I am certainly not on), was treated abhorrently and hasn't been heard from since.

You are "nauseated" by it.
Dude step back from it all. It ain't that important.
Spending time trying to go back and find what people have posted on here as some sort of "scoreboard" or "i told you so" point is sad.
Moreover, people are certainly allow to change and evolve their opinions as they get more and new information. In fact I admire those that do.

And it makes for better discussion.

You know what doesn't make for better discussion? Someone crawling back through the past posts to make some point that no one cares about.

But holy crow it's an online hockey forum. Why u heff to be mad?

[ricosuave]

I'd like to hear from some of our posters who are fans of other teams...

Landshark?
TheFoss1957?
Cali Panthers Fan?

Any others I'm missing?

Would love to hear your takes on Neal/Lucic!

[dino7c]

People talk like Hathaway was the 2nd coming of Christ...he had 19 points and played hard but didn't scare anyone

[868904]

Originally Posted by zamler

Fair point. How was he in LA when he was there I basically forgot the guy was playing.

55 points in 81 games looks pretty good.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by zamler

Fair point. How was he in LA when he was there I basically forgot the guy was playing.

Stat line says 20 goals 55 points, +26

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You are "nauseated" by it.
Dude step back from it all. It ain't that important.
Spending time trying to go back and find what people have posted on here as some sort of "scoreboard" or "i told you so" point is sad.
Moreover, people are certainly allow to change and evolve their opinions as they get more and new information. In fact I admire those that do.

And it makes for better discussion.

You know what doesn't make for better discussion? Someone crawling back through the past posts to make some point that no one cares about.

But holy crow it's an online hockey forum. Why u heff to be mad?

Oh, I'm sorry. What changed to make Bingo evolve his opinion and conclude that hits are now a trusted stat (so trusted in fact that this stat is being used to help justify a transaction)? Is there a different approach to counting them than a few months back?

Or are you talking about Opinions on Neal/Lucic. This evolution happened in a week. I believe in evolution, but I 'm not sure it happens that quickly

[zamler]

Originally Posted by 868904

55 points in 81 games looks pretty good.

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Stat line says 20 goals 55 points, +26

Not too shabby.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by 868904

55 points in 81 games looks pretty good.

2015-16 was 4 years ago.

2015-16 James Neal; 58 points in 82 games.

Looks pretty good.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

2015-16 was 4 years ago.

2015-16 James Neal; 58 points in 82 games.

Looks pretty good.

Ah, back when they still made his very favourite sticks.

But they don’t any more. Boo hoo

[カナダ人です]

Originally Posted by dino7c

People talk like Hathaway was the 2nd coming of Christ...he had 19 points and played hard but didn't scare anyone

Yeah but that's the point; the game has changed. Who does Lucic scare? I don't think Lucic has been effective for a few years. His production is going down, and he is 31 now. He's also a penalty magnet apparently. And slow.

I'd rather have Hathaway at 1.5/yr than Lucic at 5.75/yr. Their offense is basically the same too.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

Oh, I'm sorry. What changed to make Bingo evolve his opinion and conclude that hits are now a trusted stat (so trusted in fact that this stat is being used to justify a transaction)? Is there a different approach to counting them than a few months back?

Or are you talking about Opinions on Neal/Lucic. This evolution happened in a week. I believe in evolution, but I 'm not sure it happens that quickly

Changing an opinion is thankfully faster that human evolution. Changing an opinion takes about a second.

You running around point fingers like “oh, you didn’t think that before! Either did you! Or you!” is silly. It looks silly, that’s it.

I’d rather flop my opinion around like a fish fresh out of the bowl than trot around with “darkest day of the franchise” or “wow u changed ur mind huh how dare you” type of stuff. Hockey is fun. If you’re expecting people to have opinions that are so deeply held that they can’t flip a switch the second even something loosely compelling is presented, then you’re probably out of touch with why people watch hockey.

And hey, if you’re looking for an honest answer: cheering for Neal in a Flames uniform was more fun than listening to you drag him. You’re gonna have a tough time convincing Flames fans to cheer against a player wearing the sweater rather than for him. That’s why we’re here.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Changing an opinion is thankfully faster that human evolution. Changing an opinion takes about a second.

You running around point fingers like “oh, you didn’t think that before! Either did you! Or you!” is silly. It looks silly, that’s it.

I’d rather flop my opinion around like a fish fresh out of the bowl than trot around with “darkest day of the franchise” or “wow u changed ur mind huh how dare you” type of stuff. Hockey is fun. If you’re expecting people to have opinions that are so deeply held that they can’t flip a switch the second even something loosely compelling is presented, then you’re probably out of touch with why people watch hockey.

And hey, if you’re looking for an honest answer: cheering for Neal in a Flames uniform was more fun than listening to you drag him. You’re gonna have a tough time convincing Flames fans to cheer against a player wearing the sweater rather than for him. That’s why we’re here.

I'm out of thanks, but this is a post that literally everybody on Calgarypuck should read.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Ah, back when they still made his very favourite sticks.

But they don’t any more. Boo hoo

I've got $5.75 million dollars worth in my basement.