Should Treliving Be Fired?

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It was a good acquisition, but it's not like he got him for free.

In the end, a GM has to be judged by the end results and not moves in isolation. It's all about the big picture.

The 15th overall pick + Glencross + Sven.

It's not free, but it's getting an RS7 for 80 grand good.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Let me expand on this.

When I say "saddled with Backstrom" it's the acquisition where we promised a 38 year old goalie who hadn't played in 14 months with starts down the stretch. I dont have a problem with that because the expectation is that the goalie will be rusty and probably lose more than they will win. I think Backstrom outperformed (or actually, Montreal out-tanked us in the his first game).

So I think the acquisition of Backstrom was designed to help get us a pick and help get us better odds in the draft lottery.

Which is why I think it's BS that the coach is held accountable for the team's performance when the GM is making moves that he knows aren't likely to help the team win.

Because our stretch was of such importance.....The issue isn't how the team played once they were eliminated from the playoffs, it was the other 70 games of the year.

Also, Backstrom got starts due to: 1) Ramo having a season ending injury; and 2) Hiller being one of the worst goalies over the last decade. Backstrom also played in a grand total of 4 games. ...bringing him in was totally inconsequential.

And no, we shouldn't have gone after Reimer. He would have cost assets to acquire. The correct move was to wait until the off season, when there are not only FA options (including Reimer) but several teams looking to unload a goalie under contract.

As for Treveling, the Dougie Hamilton move alone gets him more time. Add in the fact that he killed it at the trade deadline, and there is absolutely no reason to fire him.

I think the issue is that you liked Hartley. So you feel that it's unfair that he gets the boot, while Treveling stays on. However, Hartley is just too simple of a coach for the NHL right now. You can read his game plan a mile away, and he isn't capable of adapting his game.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

That's where you're getting it wrong:

Hartley wasn't fired because of the goaltending. He was fired because of his poor player utilization, resistance to change, and a need for a new voice in the room.

You're right: goaltending was out of his control this year. But there were so many other variables that were in his grasp which he controlled poorly. That's what led to his firing.

So career years from:

Gaudreau
Brodie
Hamilton
Colborne
Backlund

and he's using the players poorly?

Give me a break.

[Mister Yamoto]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Good lord no. Probably the best GM we've had in my 20 years of watching

All Treliving has to do is build a roster that makes the playoffs for six straight years. Then he can be a better GM than Darryl Sutter.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

So career years from:

Gaudreau
Brodie
Hamilton
Colborne
Backlund

and he's using the players poorly?

Give me a break.

No, I shan't give thou a break, sir!

His player utilization was terrible. Notice how those players are all really young. The oldest one is 27. They had career years because they're developing!

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by blankall

Because our stretch was of such importance.....The issue isn't how the team played once they were eliminated from the playoffs, it was the other 70 games of the year.

Also, Backstrom got starts due to: 1) Ramo having a season ending injury; and 2) Hiller being one of the worst goalies over the last decade. Backstrom also played in a grand total of 4 games. ...bringing him in was totally inconsequential.

And no, we shouldn't have gone after Reimer. He would have cost assets to acquire. The correct move was to wait until the off season, when there are not only FA options (including Reimer) but several teams looking to unload a goalie under contract.

As for Treveling, the Dougie Hamilton move alone gets him more time. Add in the fact that he killed it at the trade deadline, and there is absolutely no reason to fire him.

I think the issue is that you liked Hartley. So you feel that it's unfair that he gets the boot, while Treveling stays on. However, Hartley is just too simple of a coach for the NHL right now. You can read his game plan a mile away, and he isn't capable of adapting his game.

yes, that is exactly the issue. The accountability for the goaltending this season falls to Treliving, not Hartley.

The Hamilton move gets Treliving more time. The playoffs in the 2014-15 season gets Hartley more time.

Neither one should be fired.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Agreed with everything you said. Totally understand it. And the reason the season was over was the goaltending.

So why does Hartley get left holding the bag for a decision beyond his control?

Because goaltending wasn't the only failure.

2013-14, Hartley was able to build a culture centred around relentless work ethic. His trolling of Tortorella was the glue that set the stage for last season, and the constant message of "don't try, you're just going to fail" from the media, observers, and even we fans, sealed it. Last year's Flames were a team with a massive chip on their shoulders, and Hartley expertly manipulated that.

This year's Flames though... I think they bought into the hype as easily as they dismissed the criticism the year before. This team started the year expecting a playoff spot to fall into their laps. And while the goaltending was abysmal, so too was the special teams and most tellingly, the work ethic.

Whether or not you feel the team tuned out Hartley, it is clear that the message was not as strongly received this year. We made the playoffs last season not just because of league average goaltending, but because every player on that roster was pulling the sled in one direction. And it built into numerous career years. That was lacking this year, and the results show.

And given Treliving has said he wants to be a possession driven team, that also spells doom for Hartley. It isn't that Hartley is a bad coach or a bad guy. Simply a coach who's time has come. It's happened to him twice before, and it will happen to him again.

[undercoverbrother]

I think the better question is:

Should Brian Burke be fired?

Or wait, who hired Burke?

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

No, I shan't give thou a break, sir!

His player utilization was terrible. Notice how those players are all really young. The oldest one is 27. They had career years because they're developing!

so all young players develop?

Or do they need to be put in positions to succeed in order to develop?

If what you say is true, what makes the Flames young player success so much better than what Edmonton has accomplished with much higher pedigree draft picks?

The problem you have with this argument is that it simply isn't true. The players the coach was given were utilized successfully, with the exception of Wideman on the PP.

Scotty Bowman wouldn't have made the playoffs with that goaltending this season.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Actually, if you read the original post I say that he probably shouldn't be fired.

But if we're going to start pointing fingers for last season, the conversation should start with him and not the coach.

So if we're going to fire the coach, then he should be right along side because it was Treliving that failed to address the biggest problem the team had this year - goaltending.

He was going to address the goaltending last year, and then Hamilton came available. They had the assets to get Dougie or Talbot, and they made the right decision.

Anaheim wasn't trading Andersen mid-season, Tampa wasn't trading Bishop/Vasilevsky, nobody was moving anybody good.

Maybe we could've gotten Reimer. For a conditional 4th and some minor leaguers swapping teams, I would have done that. The Flames didn't, I don't think they were especially eager for Reimer to cost them draft position. And if they like Reimer, they can get him on July 1 for free.

Ramo was brought back, and if he wasn't, Auston Matthews would be pulling on a red sweater instead of a blue one.

Brad Treliving has lost one trade since been our GM (Bollig). He seems to draft reasonably well - getting Kylington and Andersson in the 2nd round. Didn't flub the Bennett draft by gambling on Nick Ritchie. He knows what he's doing.

Relax.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

All Treliving has to do is build a roster that makes the playoffs for six straight years. Then he can be a better GM than Darryl Sutter.

Treliving is well on the way to making us a perennial contender. Despite getting to the cup finals once under Sutter I never felt we were legit perennial contenders under him.

Go to the cup finals and then trade Lydman for a 3rd? We struggled to replace him and got barely anything for him. He was a solid NHLer for years. Sutter made a lot of questionable moves. Phaneuf for nothing? Trading away Prust twice? Ugh

IMO Treliving's worst moves came in his first couple months (Raymond) and since then I haven't found any of his moves to be questionable. He had clear wins in the Glencross trade, Hamilton trade and Russell trade.

Brad Treliving is by far the best GM the team has him in my time of watching the team. Darryl Sutter was the best coach we've had but was a very mediocre to poor GM. Sutter was only successful as a GM when he had the dual role.

[FlamesAddiction]

I think it's completely fair to talk about Treliving and how accountable he should be for the recent failures.

I personally don't see what he has done to earn the "one of the top GMs in the league" description.

[bax]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I think it's completely fair to talk about Treliving and how accountable he should be for the recent failures.



I personally don't see what he has done to earn the "one of the top GMs in the league" description.

The job itself is a different lifecycle. Brad was hired because of his philosophy and strategy on how to rebuild this team. Everyone knew this would be a long process. And now some posters want to abandon that process, despite a lot of clear wins and a clear vision from the GM after only 2 seasons?

Boggles my mind

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Treliving is well on the way to making us a perennial contender. Despite getting to the cup finals once under Sutter I never felt we were legit perennial contenders under him.

Go to the cup finals and then trade Lydman for a 3rd? We struggled to replace him and got barely anything for him. He was a solid NHLer for years. Sutter made a lot of questionable moves. Phaneuf for nothing? Trading away Prust twice? Ugh

IMO Treliving's worst moves came in his first couple months (Raymond) and since then I haven't found any of his moves to be questionable. He had clear wins in the Glencross trade, Hamilton trade and Russell trade.

Brad Treliving is by far the best GM the team has him in my time of watching the team. Darryl Sutter was the best coach we've had but was a very mediocre to poor GM. Sutter was only successful as a GM when he had the dual role.

I think Treliving and Hartley have us on the way to being a contender and surpassing other rebuilds in the process.

I think the evaluation of Treliving though has to include moves not made, most notably the goaltending last season.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

No, not its not.

Does Hartley get fired today if Treliving gave him statistically average NHL goaltending this year?

No, he doesn't.

Treliving did give him statistically average goaltending this season. He gave Hartley the exact same duo as the season before. Not Treliving (or Hartley's fault for that matter) that Hiller decided to checkout. Is anyone looking back on Kipper's last crappy season and blaming the GM for that too?

Fact is, there was a ton more to Hartley being let go then just goaltending. How about the piss poor special teams? How about the poor possession stats? How about the porous defence? Inability to change game plans or lock down the defence? Etc. The list goes on.

I'm a big Hartley fan and still am. I'm genuinely saddened by the news. But the GM is the least of the teams problems right now. In fact, he's one of the few bright spots. He wins trades. He signs star players to good contracts. He makes the hard decisions and does what needs to be done, with an eye on the future. We haven't had a GM like that in years.

But sure, let's throw away the GM because in year 3 of the supposed minimum 5 year rebuild, the team was near the bottom. Aren't rebuilding teams supposed to suck? We're supposed to be bad. That's why we are rebuilding. Truth be told, we very well might suck again next season. I'm not expecting to make the playoffs at all next year, even though that is my greatest wish.

Wanting to fire the GM after 2 years into said rebuild just goes to show that fans in Canadian markets don't have patience to ride this through. I get it. We all want to be in the playoffs and be contenders like the Kings and Hawks are. But those teams at one point had to rebuild as well. They suffered greatly for long periods before finally emerging as they are now.

[killer_carlson]

Let's add another option to that poll.

Yes
No
No, but the focus is squarely on him

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I think it's completely fair to talk about Treliving and how accountable he should be for the recent failures.

I personally don't see what he has done to earn the "one of the top GMs in the league" description.

-UFA Glencross for a 2nd and 3rd and then the guy is out of the league
-Getting Hamilton for draft picks in a league where young stud defencemen rarely move. How long has EDM been trying to trade for a Hamilton type? 5 years?
-Trading UFA Kris Russell who half the posters on here thought was hot garbage for more than Iginla or Bouwmeester were traded for
-Brodie signing

Treliving has been a wizard so far and I don't see it stopping

[Dan403]

The poll should have a "Worst Topic in 2016" option.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Treliving did give him statistically average goaltending this season. He gave Hartley the exact same duo as the season before. Not Treliving (or Hartley's fault for that matter) that Hiller decided to checkout.

Fact is, there was a ton more to Hartley being let go then just goaltending. How about the piss poor special teams? How about the poor possession stats? How about the porous defence? Inability to change game plans or lock down the defence? Etc. The list goes on.

I'm a big Hartley fan and still am. I'm genuinely saddened by the news. But the GM is the least of the teams problems right now. In fact, he's one of the few bright spots. He wins trades. He signs star players to good contracts. He makes the hard decisions and does what needs to be done, with an eye on the future. We haven't had a GM like that in years.

But sure, let's throw away the GM because in year 3 of the supposed minimum 5 year rebuild, the team was near the bottom. Aren't rebuilding teams supposed to suck? We're supposed to be bad. That's why we are rebuilding. Truth be told, we very well might suck again next season. I'm not expecting to make the playoffs at all next year, even though that is my greatest wish.

Wanting to fire the GM after 2 years into board said rebuild just goes to show that fans in Canadian markets don't have patience to ride this through. I get it. We all want to be in the playoffs and be contenders like the Kings and Hawks are. But those teams at one point had to rebuild as well. They suffered greatly for long periods before finally emerging as they are now.

I think you're missing the biggest point i'm trying to make.

I don't think you should fire either, but if you're going to start accountability for last season, then the person most responsible for the biggest failure is where you start. Doesn't mean you fire them, but it does mean that you put them on notice things have to improve.

[Barbecue]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Let's add another option to that poll.

Yes
No
No, but the focus is squarely on him

nah, i like having just the two choices: Yes and No

just so we can show how much of a landslide the "No" answer will get to this ridiculous question