Sven Baertschi Discussion Thread

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nik-

I feel like Sven stole New Era's girlfriend.

There is a joke there about him not being old enough for your mom, but that might be taken the wrong way.



Really, you could replace Baertschi's name with any highly hyped prospect who has not yet managed to step up and play to his potential. The same criticism will be leveled at all of our prospects who take a couple steps backwards and are potentially being usurped by other prospects. If Knight or Ramage don't step up this season, or a Wotherspoon or Granlund fall back, they will get the same level of skepticism focused on them and their future as well. Only so many kicks at the can. Baertschi just happens to be one of our few prospects who we expected to make the team by now and has gone retrograde. More to come in the future. That's part of the game.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Okay, so what is the connection between fan expectations and Sven's confidence?

Feaster had Baertschi entitled to a roster spot on the Flames. Burke changed that by sending him back down to the AHL. His confidence is pretty low because of both Feaster and us, we expected too much out of him because of our franchise player being traded. Again, we all turned our heads at Baertschi once Iggy left, because he was our #1 prospect at the time (Gaudreau was emerging, Monahan/Bennett weren't picked yet).

To summarize, we expected way too much out of a 19, 20 year old when Iggy was traded. Sometimes, prospects aren't ready to go from the CHL to the NHL. Baertschi was alright, he is a .5 PPG player but he could be better. That's why Burke sent him back down. Baertschi's confidence has been shaken up after being demoted and trying to earn his way into a top 6 spot onto the AHL roster.

[RoughRiderRowdy]

I think some posters on this forum would have a different view on Sven if he were to be drafted, and signed with a different NHL club.

Also, the last couple pages are filled with his junior stats. The winterhawks were a team filled with great talent so his linemates were top notch offensively gifted players, and also how on earth does his junior stats matter? he was playing against kids 1-2 years plus or minus either older than him or younger than him. NHL is men and some players who put up these numbers in junior CANT translate to a mans league. Best way to describe this is like these Midget AAA or small-ish junior players, making the jump to play senior mens hockey. Playing against strong men who can dominate a smallish youngster for position in these "high traffic areas".

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by RoughRiderRowdy

I think some posters on this forum would have a different view on Sven if he were to be drafted, and signed with a different NHL club.

You mean like the Oilers? Imagine how much glee we would be taking in his struggles if he were drafted by the Oilers? Look at how badly we ride them for the shortcomings of Klefbom. Or how about Toronto and Tyler Biggs? Interesting contrast.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by New Era

You mean like the Oilers? Imagine how much glee we would be taking in his struggles if he were drafted by the Oilers? Look at how badly we ride them for the shortcomings of Klefbom. Or how about Toronto and Tyler Biggs? Interesting contrast.

The only reason Sven is taking heat is because he appeared to be a future franchise player after the 2ppg and 3 goals in 5 games. We all got very excited. Oiler fans once touted Klefbom as a top pairing guy. When a prospect stumbles opposing fans pounce. If anything fans of the prospect should be a little more patient and less harsh. But you would rather pile on a guy who at 21 is not a NHL regular yet had scored nearly at .5ppg pace in 50 games and oozes potential. Make or break at 21? Backlund was 24 when he finally put together a respectable season but according to you we should have given up on him 3-4 years ago

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by MVW

I think Sven had a slow start in the AHL for 2 reasons.

1) He played his off wing, &

2) Ward spent a lot of time with him teaching him the defensive part of the game. Baertschi was behind others such as Granlund and Reinhart in regards to knowing the system down there, so when he was first sent down his focus was on defence, which obviously affected his production as we see with most forwards playing that kind of role.

I get why people have concerns, but I'm not, if anything I'm more excited about him now because I know he's going to be a more complete player. His skills didn't just disappear.

In regards to point 2, Troy Ward has confirmed as much when interviewed on the FAN 960.

It wasn't because he wasn't good enough, they intentionally put him in a role to develop his defensive game, knowing that he was already great offensively.

They were trying to make a good player great.

[Bezer]

I think Sven will get a legit shot this year, and I think he runs with it as long as he is focused and ready to compete hard.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The only reason Sven is taking heat is because he appeared to be a future franchise player after the 2ppg and 3 goals in 5 games. We all got very excited. Oiler fans once touted Klefbom as a top pairing guy. When a prospect stumbles opposing fans pounce. If anything fans of the prospect should be a little more patient and less harsh. But you would rather pile on a guy who at 21 is not a NHL regular yet had scored nearly at .5ppg pace in 50 games and oozes potential. Make or break at 21? Backlund was 24 when he finally put together a respectable season but according to you we should have given up on him 3-4 years ago

Here are two posts that explain the situation clearly.

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpos...5&postcount=73

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpos...postcount=4855

If you can't see the issue that's developing for the club, that's your problem. But this is a deal for a lot of clubs and a problem everyone has to confront. Toronto just did it with Colborne, to our advantage. Plus, if Baertschi takes until 25 to develop, he's not going to be the top line player in the NHL people are expecting. If Baertschi takes until 25 to develop he'll be a top line player in the Swiss league. He won't be able to reinvent himself like Backlund did and turn into a good third liner and checker.

[Vinny01]

Nm

[stemit14]

I really hope everyone doubting him looks really stupid by December... Would love to see him lighting it up on Monahan's wing.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by stemit14

I really hope everyone doubting him looks really stupid by December... Would love to see him lighting it up on Monahan's wing.

So do I. I would happily look stupid for a couple of days if it meant Baertschi was lighting it up.

[jemjey]

Dunno why people seem to think that regression is some kind of death sentence for a prospect. Not every prospect follows the same progression.

Sometimes things just get bad before they get better.

I think Sven will come into camp ready to make an impact. He has the tools just takes some time to put them all together.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

One thing you instantly notice is how much bigger Sven is playing in those clips.

Could be confidence, could be the injuries over the last two seasons but he just looks bigger and more determined in those videos.

In his NHL (even some AHL) games over the last two seasons he just looks timid and small on the ice.

It was these clips and style of play that got him compared to Hossa coming out of the draft, hopefully he can get back to that.

He's timid because he know if he makes a mistake, he'll be on the fourth line or demoted to the minors.

The way this organization has handled him has been horrible, IMO.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

He's timid because he know if he makes a mistake, he'll be on the fourth line or demoted to the minors.

The way this organization has handled him has been horrible, IMO.

After Iginla got traded, I think we all looked at him to give us something good. We expected too much out of him.

[StrykerSteve]

I spent a lot of time watching him play live in Kelowna. Give him a coach that has confidence in him and linemates that can keep up with him, and he WILL dominate a hockey game.

We saw it to a certain extent with Monahan, but Hartley would demote him the moment he made a mistake.

I'm hoping for a big camp from him.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

He's timid because he know if he makes a mistake, he'll be on the fourth line or demoted to the minors.

The way this organization has handled him has been horrible, IMO.

Is this not how most prospects are handled not given ice time but have to earn it. If he is scared to make a mistake than there is no doubt in my mind that the ahl is where he shoukd be.

[Scoreface]

Originally Posted by New Era

Using Backlund as an example of what to expect with players/prospects is not a good idea. Backlund happen to be in the right place at the right time to be given a ton of chances. At the time he was our best prospect and had no competition coming in behind him. Backlund was really the only forward prospect we had with any offensive potential at the NHL level. The Flames were also a team with cap issues so his low salary was a blessing. He was given plenty of opportunities and he really didn't grasp any of them. The best thing in the world that could have happened to him was the lock out, where he went home and played to get some confidence. The player that returned was much better that the one we saw prior to the lock out, but not enough to really impress the higher ups. He was very fortunate he stepped on the gas this past season because I think Burke was not a fan and would have traded him if he was the GM at the start of the season.

Baertschi's situation is completely different. We have plenty of depth in the organization, especially at Sven's position. We also have several players pushing for that same position, which is where Baertschi's hopes get complicated. Sven is a one-way offensive player. He's trying to learn the defensive side of the game, but he's not a guy that looks to cut a position out in any role other than a scoring winger. With the arrival of Gaudreau and the development of Granlund there is now significant competition for that one or two slots up front. That is without considering current incumbents and how long they will stick around, or the potential for other NHL bodies to be brought in to provide competition. The Flames are also not a cap team and have plenty of cash to spend, so they won't be looking to younger players to keep them under the cap.

The situation is vastly different as the team's circumstances have changed. The biggest thing about the Flames now is the number of bodies they will have competing for positions. Those that perform will get the opportunity to entrench themselves on the roster. Some may think that Baertschi will be afforded time to grow until he's 25, but the reality is that the longer he takes the more likely it is that another young guy takes the position Baertschi is trying to compete for and entrenches himself on the roster. If Gaudreau steps up, takes that available LW position, and starts scoring consistently, what are the chances the team is going to be motivated to make room for Baertschi? What happens when Granlund, Ferland and Klimchuk begin their push as well? First to step up and show they are ready is going to take the positions available.

A simple thanks doesn't do this post justice. You really helped put the situation in its proper context. Nice read.

Backlund had some injuries like the broken finger during camp (remember the Stajan conspiracy theory? Haha), and his separated shoulder when he took on a Canuck who made a dirty or questionable hit on a linemate. He didn't have the pressure of say Sven being passed by other guys knocking on the door. To his credit though, Backlund still recovered and fought through that time where many had written him off and his confidence has booned from that.

I'm hoping Sven can use the increased adversity due to more competition to his advantage and be a very hungry and motivated player this fall.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by Robo

Is this not how most prospects are handled not given ice time but have to earn it. If he is scared to make a mistake than there is no doubt in my mind that the ahl is where he shoukd be.

I agree with you 100% if not for one minor difference. In my opinion, he did earn it. His play was solid, despite getting bodied off the puck, still managing to constantly generate scoring opportunities.

He was demoted because he wasn't waiver eligible. Plain and simple. If he was, he absolutely played strong enough to remain in the lineup, while other, more veteran guys who Calgary isn't able to send down, seemed to coast through the opening portion of the season.

But I digress, he still remains one of the very best hockey players the Flames organization has and those calling to trade him are being silly.

[MVW]

The comparisons with Sven to Backlund is not really about their playing situations, but rather a lesson in having patience with young players. Personally, I don't feel Sven is competing with others, but I feel he is competing more with himself. If he can do his thing, his competition will become irrelevant.

Also look at a guy like Nyquist, had the Wings lost patience with him or forgot about him due to a numbers game, they would of been big time losers. Detroit also has a wealth of prospects similar to the Flames, but utilized their farm system to harvest the growth of a lot young assets that are now ready to step in and contribute at a high level. Writing Baertschi off is incredibly premature. It may take him 2-3 seasons still in order to become a 60ish+ point player.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

I agree with you 100% if not for one minor difference. In my opinion, he did earn it. His play was solid, despite getting bodied off the puck, still managing to constantly generate scoring opportunities.

He was demoted because he wasn't waiver eligible. Plain and simple. If he was, he absolutely played strong enough to remain in the lineup, while other, more veteran guys who Calgary isn't able to send down, seemed to coast through the opening portion of the season.

But I digress, he still remains one of the very best hockey players the Flames organization has and those calling to trade him are being silly.

No, he was demoted because we was not ready for the NHL. Hartley did not have it in for Sven - why was Hartley so great with every other prospect? Name one single prospect Hartley didn't give a fair shake to? If he did have it 'in' for Sven, then there must be a reason, no?

Perhaps Sven was just not NHL ready yet. People keep pushing their view that Sven was mishandled and should not have been sent down, but he simply was not NHL ready. Not physically, not mentally.

If he was mishandled, it was by Feaster seemingly forcing Hartley to keeping him up. His tentativeness had much more to do with him avoiding contact. He lost puck battles routinely.

I understand people's notions to write their own narrative as to why their favorite prospect isn't in the NHL, but there is just no evidence of Hartley mishandling him at all. Not when every other prospect takes a step forward. Not when Baertschi goes to the AHL, and we see him being outplayed by other rookies. It wasn't like Baertschi came out and destroyed the AHL. In the playoffs, he was simply not effective either after seemingly turning it around.

I am still very high on Baertschi. I voted for him in the 3rd round this year. I just completely disagree with your narrative (and others') that Baertschi was mishandled by Hartley when it was Feaster that was mishandling him. I think being in the AHL until he is ready is the best way to handle his development. AHL is a legitimate league in itself, and considered a development league, no? Very best place to develop your talent. Whenever he is ready, he will earn for a roster spot. Simple as that. Flames have ZERO incentive to hold him back. Why would they? Why on Earth would they want to damage the development of one of their brightest prospects?

Whenever Sven develops and earns a spot, he will get it - just like Monahan, just like Wotherspoon, just like Gadreau, just like Granlund, just like Reinhart, just like Bennett, just like everyone. Writing a narrative that describes him being mishandled does not fit when you are looking at the whole picture organizationally.

I would agree with you if I saw an NHL-ready Sven competing out there, or even a dominating AHL Sven seemingly being ignored as other prospects were being called up. I didn't see either of those Svens. I saw a Sven who was not NHL ready, but who exudes skill and potential. He is where I think is best for him - the AHL. If he stays on the roster this season, it will be because he earned it. If not, then hopefully next season, or the season after. At some point, Sven will have to earn his spot, and there is NOBODY holding him back except himself and the competition.