Quebec Riots start up again

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by polak

I didn't know it was your democratic right to riot.

They are all rioting? Link?

[Canuck-Hater]

Originally Posted by polak

I didn't know it was your democratic right to riot.

These riots are isolated incidents. A handful of people doesn't equal thousands.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I'm surprised that so many people here are so quick to begrudge people for exercising their democratic rights (even if they disagree with the cause.)

Nobody begrudges your right to peaceful assembly and peaceful protest. As long as A) theres actually something that your protesting. B) that your protest is not a riot, there is no property or personal damaged caused by your protest and no laws are broken.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Makarov

They are all rioting? Link?

Video on the first page doesn't exactly look like a peaceful assembly.

Also, when you protest something, you open up yourself and your cause to criticism. That is what we are doing.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Nobody begrudges your right to peaceful assembly and peaceful protest. As long as A) theres actually something that your protesting. B) that your protest is not a riot, there is no property or personal damaged caused by your protest and no laws are broken.

Great. So no one here begrudges the majority of the students protesting in Montreal.

Obviously I am not defending those people who are using violence. They should be arrested and punished according to the law.

[bomber317]

Is it democratic when students protesting block other students from learning?

This happened last year when the universities re-opened and rioting students interfered with the students that were trying to go to lectures.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I'm surprised that so many people here are so quick to begrudge people for exercising their democratic rights (even if they disagree with the cause.)

Seriously we are talking about $70 here right? Complete idiots.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by polak

Video on the first page doesn't exactly look like a peaceful assembly.

Unfortunately, it seems difficult to protest these days without attracting a certain element that attends for the sole purpose of causing trouble and damaging property, etc. I don't think its fair to dismiss the entire crowd based on those trouble makers.

Originally Posted by polak

Also, when you protest something, you open up yourself and your cause to criticism. That is what we are doing.

Totally agree. Criticizing the message or goal of a protest is (and should be) fair game. I felt that some posters were criticizing the students for protesting, period. I just quickly reviewed the thread though and didn't really see much of that, so I think my comment was unfair. I apologize for that.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Great. So no one here begrudges the majority of the students protesting in Montreal.

Obviously I am not defending those people who are using violence. They should be arrested and punished according to the law.

Absolutely unfortunately the idiots who riot almost cause the other sheep to join in and the entire protest becomes a problem.

It becomes very difficult for the police who are vastly outnumbered to become selective, their mandate if anything violent or destructive happens during a protest is to shut the protest down and clear the street.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

Ive said it before and I'll say it again, education is important and should be available to everyone regardless of social and financial status. It would be awesome if the whole country had affordable tuition like Quebec IMO.

If the whole country could piss off to uni because they wern't really sure what to do when they left high school then we would have a country full of useless graduates who's degree would be equivalent to Grade 12 (as half of them are now) what we wouldn't have is the money to pay for other programs as well as a huge shortage of tradespeople to fix the bloody toilet.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by bomber317

Is it democratic when students protesting block other students from learning?

This happened last year when the universities re-opened and rioting students interfered with the students that were trying to go to lectures.

Yes and no. It depends on the extent of the interference, among other circumstances, in my opinion. But no, I do not think it is democratic to completely prevent other students from attending classes (if that was indeed happening.) However, that is not what we are discussing here, is it?

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

What is this year's rate of inflation?

What's the last 5 year's average rate of inflation including fuel costs? The increase was based upon 5 years. I get it that we have a lower inflation rate currently, but 3% is pretty conservative long run measure of inflation.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by polak

All she gets from them is a roof over her head and food when she is home to eat it. There is no difference between her and someone whose parents make sub 50K but provide food and shelter. Sure there are people who don't even get that, but like I said, you can't revamp the entire system for the outliers.

Yeah, cause its not like having a $10,000/year market rate ($850 a month for rent and the additional expenses is actually pretty low, but still)expense being paid for doesn't help at all or anything. And in your example you are stuck going to a school that has to be within distance of their house. What if she wants to do a program she loves, but thats only offered at schools in say Vancouver and Toronto? Are you saying she should suck it up and do something else that she won't enjoy as much at the school closer to home, because thats whats affordable? We shouldn't limit people's choices, especially for post secondary. We should want people doing careers they have passion for, not one's they did based on expense.

It's funny cause I think the reaction by the students to this whole $70 additional fee is laughable. Of course they're pathetic. But again to suggest going through post secondary is easy is entirely circumstantial. It's easy if everything is set up perfectly for you, Otherwise its gonna be a lot of work, and cost too. I did it, wasn't easy, glad I chose to do what I wanted.

I guess that was really my point. Going to post secondary isn't nearly as easy as some have suggested. It can be incredibly difficult for many people, and just because it was easy for you has more to do with circumstance than that being the norm.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Absolutely unfortunately the idiots who riot almost cause the other sheep to join in and the entire protest becomes a problem.

It becomes very difficult for the police who are vastly outnumbered to become selective, their mandate if anything violent or destructive happens during a protest is to shut the protest down and clear the street.

I agree that these protests, and the element that they attract, put the police in a very difficult position of balancing people's Charter rights and enforcing the Criminal Code/protecting property etc.

Anyway, I guess the point I was trying to make (albeit clumsily) is that I don't have any problem with people taking to the streets to try and make their voice heard. Indeed, especially in this day and age of apathy and exclusion from the political process, I think it should be applauded, even if I don't particularly agree with what that voice is calling for (as I don't in this case).

[bomber317]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Yes and no. It depends on the extent of the interference, among other circumstances, in my opinion. But no, I do not think it is democratic to completely prevent other students from attending classes (if that was indeed happening.) However, that is not what we are discussing here, is it?

It is and it isn't. I think we have to look at this Tuition protest as a whole and include the history dating back to last year.

How far do we let these protesters demonstrate their democratic right? Do we let them demonstrate their democratic right when it interferes with the democratic rights of others?

[cDnStealth]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

The protests shouldn't be about how much post-secondary costs but rather how post-secondary is so poorly-designed in this country.

Almost everybody goes to University because they want to find a job. This isn't the past anymore where people just went to be enlightened, etc. It's a very practical thing. There was a recent documentary on how bad Canadian universities are at actually matching their courses and preparation with industry with their students. More and more graduates aren't finding work in their fields because Universities don't do enough to actually foster the proper fields and coordinate with industry and business to get students into them. As a result of this, students end up going back to school for even higher education which further removes them from that entry level that they really need to get their foot in the door.

I don't suppose you remember the name of this documentary?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Yeah, cause its not like having a $10,000/year market rate ($850 a month for rent and the additional expenses is actually pretty low, but still)expense being paid for doesn't help at all or anything. And in your example you are stuck going to a school that has to be within distance of their house. What if she wants to do a program she loves, but thats only offered at schools in say Vancouver and Toronto? Are you saying she should suck it up and do something else that she won't enjoy as much at the school closer to home, because thats whats affordable? We shouldn't limit people's choices, especially for post secondary. We should want people doing careers they have passion for, not one's they did based on expense.

It's funny cause I think the reaction by the students to this whole $70 additional fee is laughable. Of course they're pathetic. But again to suggest going through post secondary is easy is entirely circumstantial. It's easy if everything is set up perfectly for you, Otherwise its gonna be a lot of work, and cost too. I did it, wasn't easy, glad I chose to do what I wanted.

I guess that was really my point. Going to post secondary isn't nearly as easy as some have suggested. It can be incredibly difficult for many people, and just because it was easy for you has more to do with circumstance than that being the norm.

Nor should it be. Life isn't easy, why should university be? I paid my own way and i was out of town.


If someone wants to go somewhere else for a better program or to do something they like more, they THEY are responsible for making it happen. Work a couple years and save all your money so you can. If you have to take student loans, then so be it...its still a choice and at least they have one.

These bozos in Quebec though...deserve absolutely no sympathy...none.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by cDnStealth

I don't suppose you remember the name of this documentary?

If it's the one I'm thinking of, it was called "Generation Jobless" and was on CBC (The passionate eye?).

The one I saw spent a lot of time comparing the Canadian system to Switzerland.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I too worked my way through university. I put in a lot of hours at minimum wage to work my way through. However, I can truely say that those that didn't have to work their way through and had mommy and daddy pay for it had an easier time of it. I didn't have near the time to study and many of my papers were rushed because I had time limitations. To those that worked their way through and came out with no debt, kudos to you. But do you honestly believe that it was as easy for you as it would have been if you had your education paid for by scholarship? And again, I'm not saying that life is supposed to be easy, I'm saying that it should be the government's role to ensure that life is MORE fair.

So have you worked hard for your children to avoid the same hardships you had to face if they decide to pursue a post secondary education?

Seems to me the profit motive/incentive is working?

I'm saying it's the INDIVIDUALS role to ensure their life, and those of their children, is the product of their labour, not the product of a bureaucratic decision.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

So have you worked hard for your children to avoid the same hardships you had to face if they decide to pursue a post secondary education?

Seems to me the profit motive/incentive is working?

I'm saying it's the INDIVIDUALS role to ensure their life, and those of their children, is the product of their labour, not the product of a bureaucratic decision.

The point is ladies and gentlemen that Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed in all of its forms. Greed for life, money, love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind, and greed - you mark my words - will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the U.S.A.

Read more: http://www.sweetspeeches.com/s/1095-...#ixzz2MnLKdEVh