Sorry for exploiting your land and letting you live in poverty. Here's a $1000.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not sure how you can compare the two.

Canada has always been tolerant of the traditions of its people. As long as you follow the law and pay your taxes, nobody cares when you celebrate Christmas, or if you even do.

Not sure if serious.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not sure how you can compare the two.

Canada has always been tolerant of the traditions of its people. As long as you follow the law and pay your taxes, nobody cares when you celebrate Christmas, or if you even do.

What 'traditions' that the Natives have would be 'lost' if the reserve system were abolished and the Native people were assimilated into the rest of Canada?

If by "always" you mean for the last few years. It's not like potlatches weren't banned for nearly a century or that First Nations children weren't taken from their parents and stuffed into hell hole residential schools in a scheme to abolish native culture.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by return to the red

Was this a mutually agreed upon settlement or awarded in the courts?

It was mutually agreed upon.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not sure how you can compare the two.

Canada has always been tolerant of the traditions of its people. As long as you follow the law and pay your taxes, nobody cares when you celebrate Christmas, or if you even do.

What 'traditions' that the Natives have would be 'lost' if the reserve system were abolished and the Native people were assimilated into the rest of Canada?

As mentioned by other posters, they are comparable in that Canada was not always tolerant. The difference between China and Tibet and Canada and First Nations is they are in different points of time. If you look back to the 1800's, I would argue English settlers were just as harsh to the Native people as China is with Tibetans. If we travel 100 years into the future, who knows, China could be in the exact same situation Canada and The US are in right now.

And that's why I said the ultimate end goal would be the same if you think assimilation is the solution. Whether you breed them out like China does to Tibet, or you force the First Nations people into Canadian society, eventually both cultures will die out or be changed to the point where it's completely different. You can argue they can preserve their heritage, but the reality is, as each generation goes by, less and less will be passed down.

I'm a second generation Chinese. I know less of Chinese culture than my parents. My kids will know less than I will, and their kids will know less than them. Eventually, they'll be fully integrated into the Canadian culture. What's driving this "mosaic" of different cultures is the constant immigration Canada has. Where are First Nations people going to immigrate from?

[return to the red]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

It was mutually agreed upon.

Well then the Natives, and every other person, should take as much issue with their leadership as they do with the government.

[Rocky Raccoon]

Originally Posted by Azure

You're kidding right? Every single Native that has left the reserve has gone on to life a WAY better life.

Its not even a question.

Originally Posted by Azure

Not sure how you can compare the two.

Canada has always been tolerant of the traditions of its people. As long as you follow the law and pay your taxes, nobody cares when you celebrate Christmas, or if you even do.

What 'traditions' that the Natives have would be 'lost' if the reserve system were abolished and the Native people were assimilated into the rest of Canada?

Both of these statements are false. If you want to make these grand sweeping statements and claims while being simultaneously taken seriously, you're going to have to start providing evidence of these statements and claims.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm beginning to wonder if you actually are aware of what the quality of life is like on your 'average' Native reserve.

And assimilation doesn't mean giving up your traditions. There are a variety of different groups of people in Canada that have held onto their traditions despite being treated like all other Canadians.

From Wiki:

Cultural assimilation is one type of assimilation, resulting in the loss of a subaltern group's native language and culture under pressure to assimilate to those of a dominant cultural group.

[polak]

Anyone that thinks segregation is the answer really needs to stop playing the "race" and guilt card and look at the situation as it is.

We live in a BETTER then 1st world country, a country that is routinely ranked as one of the best places to live in the entire world but we have pockets of people living in levels of impoverishment that are bad even for a 3rd world country and these people are being led by a select few who have historically been some of the most corrupt "politicians" in the world.

Throwing money at people who have no resources or abilities to do anything with it beside frivolously spending it, isn't going to fix anything. It's been done. There are countless initiatives that try and "educate" or provide them with the tools to be healthy and safe and NONE of these have had any effect. There is no alternative. Nothing. Not one viable solution that exists for these people besides the removal of this backwards 1800's B.S. system.

Is it unfair for them to lose exclusive access to this land? Yes.
Is it going to be easy to do this? Not a chance.

But, without doing so, nothing will change.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Locke

Forgive my ignorant post, but at this point the facts of the case seem to me:

- The Government held the land in trust for Natives
- The Government profited off of that land and didnt share that with the Natives
- Reparation payments, albeit insignificant, are being made

Now, from my limited understanding of the general Native situation, isnt one of their core issues concerning the poverty of the overwhelming number of Native Americans the fact that the band chiefs dont fairly distribute the resources?

So if the Government had made the profits and shared them with the Natives, would that have alleviated that poverty in any significant way?

Or is the outrage more about the fact that they didnt get the opportunity?

It's both. When people can't afford to heat their houses and the government is holding a significant portion of money they've made off of native land, then the government is contributing to poverty.

Also, who the hell is anyone to tell you how you can or can't spend your money?

[polak]

Originally Posted by Rathji

From Wiki:

Oh please.
Are you going to tell me that immigrants to Canada are robbed of their culture? This country encourages multiculturalism more then any country I've ever heard of.

Obviously it's not perfect. Every country has bigots and backwards ass people, but in Canada, the number of those types of people is probably smaller then any where else in the world. The consequences of segregation are far worse then having to put up with the few openly racist people that live here.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by polak

Anyone that thinks segregation is the answer really needs to stop playing the "race" and guilt card and look at the situation as it is.

We live in a BETTER then 1st world country, a country that is routinely ranked as one of the best places to live in the entire world but we have pockets of people living in levels of impoverishment that are bad even for a 3rd world country and these people are being led by a select few who have historically been some of the most corrupt "politicians" in the world.

Throwing money at people who have no resources or abilities to do anything with it beside frivolously spending it, isn't going to fix anything. It's been done. There are countless initiatives that try and "educate" or provide them with the tools to be healthy and safe and NONE of these have had any effect. There is no alternative. Nothing. Not one viable solution that exists for these people besides the removal of this backwards 1800's B.S. system.

Is it unfair for them to lose exclusive access to this land? Yes.
Is it going to be easy to do this? Not a chance.

But, without doing so, nothing will change.

Forcing natives to assimilate with the rest of Canada because the living conditions are considered better is like a asking a woman to move back in with her repeatedly abusive husband because his house is much nicer than the women's shelter and he promises not to smack her around anymore.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by return to the red

Well then the Natives, and every other person, should take as much issue with their leadership as they do with the government.

I don't see why, this was an agreed upon settlement over awarding payments due. The dollar figure likely takes into account the ability to avoid the costs of litigation, the certainty of the award and the avoidance of any risk of losing.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by polak

Oh please.
Are you going to tell me that immigrants to Canada are robbed of their culture? This country encourages multiculturalism more then any country I've ever heard of.

Obviously it's not perfect. Every country has bigots and backwards ass people, but in Canada, the number of those types of people is probably smaller then any where else in the world.

Of course not, because what happens in Canada isn't forcing people to assimilate and wouldn't in any solution that involves the First Nations. He is using the wrong word, and it is making his argument completely invalid. I thought my pictorial reference made that clear.

For the record, I think the word he wants to be using, is integration. Like you said, we encourage multiculturalism by integrating cultures into our own, we don't assimilate them.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

They didn't 'steal' the land - they did what EVERY civilization has done before it by taking it. The only thing they did different is pretend they hadn't. It's US land - they won it - quit pretending otherwise.

How did they win it exactly? They purchased/leased it, then never paid. Can I "win" your house that way?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

How did they win it exactly? They purchased/leased it, then never paid. Can I "win" your house that way?

I believe he's referring to the greater mass of the US, not lands given over to tribes. The rest of it, rightly or wrongly, was won like most historical land claims, with blood.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Locke

Why do people always say that every time a controversial topic comes up?

"Oh look, a wide variety of disparate opinions from a wide variety of disparate individuals. Some insensitive, some borderline racist, some uninformed, some just flat-out jokes and some, perhaps most, actually on topic and interested in discussion."

I think it's the first time I've said that, so not sure why "people always say that"

But maybe because the flyby bigot comments that ad nothing to the discussion are alway prevalent in these threads, and they unnecessarily bring the thread quality down a great deal?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by valo403

I believe he's referring to the greater mass of the US, not lands given over to tribes. The rest of it, rightly or wrongly, was won like most historical land claims, with blood.

But that is not the land in question

[polak]

Yeah Integration is probably a better word to use.

And the wife beating husband analogy doesn't work. It'd be more like if the wife and wife beating husband died and the son who is now far wealthier and has a completely different attitude then his father, invited the daughter of the wife to join his family.

[return to the red]

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't see why, this was an agreed upon settlement over awarding payments due. The dollar figure likely takes into account the ability to avoid the costs of litigation, the certainty of the award and the avoidance of any risk of losing.

Well people seem to be taking issue with the fact that the US government is only giving each individual person $1000 AT THIS TIME, even the thread title suggests that the government is trying to only pay $X. The quotes in the article suggest that this was the only thing offered and they had to accept it, which they didn't have to.

IMHO you have no right to complain that you didn't receive enough when you yourself accepted the amount.

[afc wimbledon]

As the foster parent of native kids I can tell you the racism is routine, daily and both official and personal.