Bill C-386: Make replacement workers illegal

[simmonjam1]

I'll eat pubes if this Bill passes.

[pylon]

nm

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by pylon

In 12 years in the business, I have never seen one unjustified dismissal, and the level of respect from management to employees is always very healthy as the management teams are equally exposed and need the sales teams to perform for them to stay employed. The bottom line is, if your good at your job, you'll keep it....period. And the workplace politics are very slim to none as those that succeed do so for good reason.

Then I guess you are lucky to have a good employer. My career has been a mix between private sector (non-unionized) and public sector (unionized) as a system developer/designer and project manager.

One reason I left my last private sector job was because of all the horrible abuses of power. I have documented those abuses in other threads, but all that happens here at CP is people called me a liar because my examples didn't fit their world view. Since yours fits their cozy world view, it will be accepted as gospel. So rather than subject myself to further abuse, I'll just keep it short. I have seen unjustified dismissals. I have seen sexual harassment go uncorrected. I have seen promotions go to unqualified people because of who they know, not what they know.

Outside of the examples from my last employer, my mother worked for a company that gave a full pension after 30 years of employment. My mother gave her life and soul to that company, working plenty of extra hours for no extra pay, giving up time with the family to go on extended business trips, consistently winning awards for her accomplishments.... and then when she hit 29 years of employment, she was unceremoniously dumped. The company downsized, dropping those with the most seniority and keeping only the younger workers. She was given a "take it or leave it" severance package that pays her $1,000 a year in pension.

My best friend is a non-practicing Muslim that took a job in the U.S.. After 9/11 she was discriminated against at work. Her project was sabotaged by a senior analyst and the sabotage was covered up by the network techie. Just because she LOOKED Muslim. She had no proof and nobody on her side. She ended up quitting that job and coming back to Canada.

Now, I know I am again going to be called a liar.... there are never any abuses within a non-union shop. I know this because CP says it is so. But I can tell you from my own personal life experiences, I have seen enough abuses by those in power at big companies that I'll be sticking to my unionized job.

BTW - promotion based on seniority rather than performance isn't always the case with unionized shops. Government competitions, while it is possible for them to be co-opted, it is less likely to be as transparently biased as in the private sector. In general the competitions are built to find who has the most knowledge and ability to perform the task of the higher position.

[firebug]

Originally Posted by SebC

I don't like minimum wage. It causes unemployment.

Nothing personal, as this is a commonly held opinion, but in the real world this has never been demonstrated to be true.

"A lot of young hot heads, fresh out of Economics 101, find it crushingly obvious that minimum wage laws create unemployment... This argument is perfectly cogent. In fact, it's a scintillating example of what Kant called a 'synthetic a priori' judgment."

"The point is that no simple model of supply and demand is going to capture all...variables. Unlike rent control, which involves a relatively straightforward transaction, the complexity of real-world labour markets is sufficient to confound any simple economic model. Yet people persist in making confident predictions about the consequences of the 'laws of economics' based upon wildly oversimplified ideas about how economic actors actually behave."

- Joseph Heath (from pages 54 - 57 of Filthy Lucre)

As an aside, Filthy Lucre: Economics for People who Hate Capitalism is a fantastic book and one which i give the highest of recommendations, especially for anyone who is at all interested in politics or economics.

For those that are curious as to what the book is like but don't want to pay for it yet, there are two chapters deleted from the final version available here and here.

[Resolute 14]

That cross you bear must be incredibly heavy, DA....

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Then I guess you are lucky to have a good employer. My career has been a mix between private sector (non-unionized) and public sector (unionized) as a system developer/designer and project manager.

One reason I left my last private sector job was because of all the horrible abuses of power. I have documented those abuses in other threads, but all that happens here at CP is people called me a liar because my examples didn't fit their world view. Since yours fits their cozy world view, it will be accepted as gospel. So rather than subject myself to further abuse, I'll just keep it short. I have seen unjustified dismissals. I have seen sexual harassment go uncorrected. I have seen promotions go to unqualified people because of who they know, not what they know.

And likewise, I have seen my share of ######s and dog humpers promoted ahead of bright talent and hard workers, based on the fact that they had union seniority...

[Mirajj]

I love unions for bringing us the best quote of all time for dog humpers and slackers: "That's not in my job description."

It really chaps my @$$ that I pay union dues. The union has done nothing for me but make my job harder in that I have to deal with aforementioned dog humpers and slackers that always do just barely enough to avoid being dismissed. Or because they are favorites of the union (Shop snitches), so the union

I was asked to be a shop steward, and I refused. When asked why, I said that I could not, in good conscience, "represent the lazy @$$holes who work here."

A couple of my very pro-union co-workers asked me why I didn't like the union, like they did. I replied "Because I'm a good enough worker that I don't need a union to keep my job for me."

They had their place, but it's long in the past.

[Mirajj]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

And likewise, I have seen my share of ######s and dog humpers promoted ahead of bright talent and hard workers, based on the fact that they had union seniority...

This is another thing. You don't often see it in the private sector, but it does happen.

But in a union, it's the RULE. Seniority over anything else. Skill? Ability? Those don't matter to a union rep. Oh, but a useless, lazy POS worker who's been there for 10 years because the company can't fire him, and he knows he's too crappy of a worker to work somewhere else? Clearly lead hand/higher material due to seniority...

[CaramonLS]

DA, you do know that if a company is found guilty of not investigating a harassment claim, they can be found liable and forced to pay some major damages.

It's a worker education piece/personal responsibility which plays into it. You should do some research and know your rights as a worker vs having a union rep spoon feed you information, which isn't always correct. One of the major problems with business agents is that they come from the same unwashed mass that some of the employees come from. In fact, favoritism and being a good little soldier vs ability is pretty much the criteria to become a business agent for the union.

Dont think unions are above reproach in this DA.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

And likewise, I have seen my share of ######s and dog humpers promoted ahead of bright talent and hard workers, based on the fact that they had union seniority...

That was another funny example of the Telus strike - the replacement workers were initially making crazy overtime because there were fewer people actually doing the work. But they very quickly proved to be far more efficient than the union workers who were on strike and the overtime quickly dried up. In fact, by the time the union gave it up they were starting to experience a lack of work.

Likewise, when my brother in law started working for the city, he and his partner were quickly "advised" by the long time employees to slow down because they were making the long time union guys look bad.

[transplant99]

My favorite union story.

20 years ago or so there was a steel plant out off 52nd and 17th ave SE (IIRC)...anyhow my roommate at the time was employed there and was unionized. They decided to go on strike for more money at one point and the ownership flat out told them, you strike for very long, we close down and everyone loses their job. Well after 3 weeks of picketing (sitting on lawn chairs with signs propped up against cars while playing cards) and collecting their strike pay, the company folded the thing and it was over. Closed. Gone forever.

Even after the doors are closed, they CONTINUE to show up and picket until the majority grabbed a brain and realized they were striking against...nothing ....at the behest of their "leadership". It was truly amazing to me and laughable at the same time.

Stupid is as stupid does, and unions are....well....idiotic at best.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

That was another funny example of the Telus strike - the replacement workers were initially making crazy overtime because there were fewer people actually doing the work. But they very quickly proved to be far more efficient than the union workers who were on strike and the overtime quickly dried up. In fact, by the time the union gave it up they were starting to experience a lack of work.

Likewise, when my brother in law started working for the city, he and his partner were quickly "advised" by the long time employees to slow down because they were making the long time union guys look bad.

I can confirm that, a friend of mine who was in a managment unon union position ended up going out and doing installs. He made a ton of money at first and was working all hours of the day. But in the end he was back at normal hours.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by transplant99

My favorite union story.

20 years ago or so there was a steel plant out off 52nd and 17th ave SE (IIRC)...anyhow my roommate at the time was employed there and was unionized. They decided to go on strike for more money at one point and the ownership flat out told them, you strike for very long, we close down and everyone loses their job. Well after 3 weeks of picketing (sitting on lawn chairs with signs propped up against cars while playing cards) and collecting their strike pay, the company folded the thing and it was over. Closed. Gone forever.

Even after the doors are closed, they CONTINUE to show up and picket until the majority grabbed a brain and realized they were striking against...nothing ....at the behest of their "leadership". It was truly amazing to me and laughable at the same time.

Stupid is as stupid does, and unions are....well....idiotic at best.

didn't that happen at one of Pocklington's meat packing plants in Edmonton where they were still picketing years after the plant closed.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by transplant99

My favorite union story.

20 years ago or so there was a steel plant out off 52nd and 17th ave SE (IIRC)...anyhow my roommate at the time was employed there and was unionized. They decided to go on strike for more money at one point and the ownership flat out told them, you strike for very long, we close down and everyone loses their job. Well after 3 weeks of picketing (sitting on lawn chairs with signs propped up against cars while playing cards) and collecting their strike pay, the company folded the thing and it was over. Closed. Gone forever.

Even after the doors are closed, they CONTINUE to show up and picket until the majority grabbed a brain and realized they were striking against...nothing ....at the behest of their "leadership". It was truly amazing to me and laughable at the same time.

Stupid is as stupid does, and unions are....well....idiotic at best.

I hear nothing but bad things from people I know working at the city. Needing to slow down or spend to the budget so we don't get cuts next year. This coupled with the fact they have no incentive because it's next to impossible to get someone fired leads to some of the laziest soul destroying organizations in existence.

I really wonder how Nenshi is going to streamline the city administration to fix the mess that it currently is with the unions in the way. I like how well structured companies are run, everything is performance based and metric measured with reward based on the performance against these metrics. System like this is less prone to be biased, more fair and discourages laziness.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

didn't that happen at one of Pocklington's meat packing plants in Edmonton where they were still picketing years after the plant closed.

Yup, he closed it down and moved his operations to Manitoba.

[Redliner]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

That was another funny example of the Telus strike - the replacement workers were initially making crazy overtime because there were fewer people actually doing the work. But they very quickly proved to be far more efficient than the union workers who were on strike and the overtime quickly dried up. In fact, by the time the union gave it up they were starting to experience a lack of work.

Likewise, when my brother in law started working for the city, he and his partner were quickly "advised" by the long time employees to slow down because they were making the long time union guys look bad.

This happens far more often than union leadership would have their members believe. As a manager, I was deployed as a replacement worker during a 5 week strike in 2007. There was a learning curve at first, but by the end of the second week we were routinely performing tasks more efficiently and at lower cost to the company than the regular unionized crews. The union caught wind of this and sent the membership out to harrass us while we were working - they would barricade materials stockpiles and record us with camcorders trying to catch us violating workplace safety regulations, then post the videos on their website. A week later they stopped, because they realized that having the videos on the internet in public domain was hurting their cause by highlighting the performance differential between unionized & management workers. In one case, my crew of 4 performed a task by hand in about 5 hours and couldn't figure out why the local managers were amazed - until they informed us that their regular unionized crew of 4 would have taken two days to perform the same task and would have hired heavy equipment to assist.

For the record, the unionized workers involved in that strike settled for the exact same deal the company was offering on day one. Their union leadership whipped them all into a frenzy claiming that they were going to "take the company to the mat". At the end of it all the only thing the strike accomplished was losing them 5 weeks' wages. I honestly felt bad for them, because the union leaders led them into the breech for no reason. Some of these guys ended up missing mortgage payments because of the strike, and I guarantee you the union leaders didnt face any financial hardship because of it.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

And likewise, I have seen my share of ######s and dog humpers promoted ahead of bright talent and hard workers, based on the fact that they had union seniority...

As I stated, that's not the way all unions work. Mine certainly doesn't. I agree, promotion based on seniority rather than productivity is wrong...

Originally Posted by Mirajj

A couple of my very pro-union co-workers asked me why I didn't like the union, like they did. I replied "Because I'm a good enough worker that I don't need a union to keep my job for me."

As stated, I know some very good workers that were fired... there is no guarantee that being a good worker keeps your job. Hell, my cousin was selling shoes at one franchise outlet and was getting phone calls at home from the manager who would complain about her (the manger's) boyfriend and ask my cousin for advice. My cousin decided to get out of this bad situation and transfer to another franchise outlet elsewhere in the city. Before her first shift the new manager called her and said not to bother reporting. Off the record, he said the other manager had blacklisted her and the new manager had to maintain a working relationship with the previous manager. It didn't matter how good of a worker she was, she was out a job. Sure she could have lodged a complaint, but she didn't think a job selling shoes was worth fighting for. You can claim that in a non-unionized shop there are not abuses of power by management and the profit motive means that good workers will be kept and bad workers will be fired. But there are other, personal motives in play.

Originally Posted by Mirajj

But in a union, it's the RULE. Seniority over anything else. Skill? Ability?

You state that like it is all unions. Like I said, not my union and not in many unions. Like I said above, seniority based promotions is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

DA, you do know that if a company is found guilty of not investigating a harassment claim, they can be found liable and forced to pay some major damages.

As was the case I alluded to, many times women don't want to fight sexual harassment. Only 40% of women that are sexually harassed ever file a complaint. Most do not because they fear reprisal for complaining. According to the Reid Report, 50% of women believe that reporting sexual harassment will cause them more problems than not reporting. Some fear retaliation from either the employer or harasser. If they need to go to court, the action is slow, stressful and expensive. Someone just out of university fresh to the work force doesn't know what steps they have to follow to fight sexual harassment and most will just find alternate employment, even if it means going someplace that pays less.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

As was the case I alluded to, many times women don't want to fight sexual harassment. Only 40% of women that are sexually harassed ever file a complaint. Most do not because they fear reprisal for complaining. According to the Reid Report, 50% of women believe that reporting sexual harassment will cause them more problems than not reporting. Some fear retaliation from either the employer or harasser. If they need to go to court, the action is slow, stressful and expensive. Someone just out of university fresh to the work force doesn't know what steps they have to follow to fight sexual harassment and most will just find alternate employment, even if it means going someplace that pays less.

You're going to see that number change - and fast. Employment standards is now a mandatory part of the CALM curriculum.

Unions IMHO are a result of employers not following fair labour practises in the past. However, for the most part, they've been punished long enough and learned from their mistakes.

They served their purpose a long time ago, but now, with a far more educated workforce, there really isn't much of a purpose.

[HeartsOfFire]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

That was another funny example of the Telus strike - the replacement workers were initially making crazy overtime because there were fewer people actually doing the work. But they very quickly proved to be far more efficient than the union workers who were on strike and the overtime quickly dried up. In fact, by the time the union gave it up they were starting to experience a lack of work.

I call BS.

The overtime bit is true, but the efficiency bit is bollocks.

[Resolute 14]

Of course you do. It isn't in your best interest to admit that given some training and time, anyone can do your job well.

That union bred lazy workers, and the union Telus employees at that time were on a work to rule campaign - so were being even lazier than usual. When they went on strike, the staff they had take over adjusted fairly quickly and once they cleared up the union created backlog, had little difficulty keeping up with the new calls.

Trust me. I have a couple friends who got used to the kind of money they were making with the massive overtime who were quite disappointed when they were back to their usual 35-40 hour week before the strike ended. It seems CaptainCrunch does too.