Vatican tries to wiggle out of sex abuse scams by....

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Firefly..please accept my sincerest and deepest condolences for what your Uncle did. He should be in prison...or at the very least a marked man as a pervert.
Of course if we started looking into the reasons why many "family" members did what they did to their daughters/sons, Im sure we might find some type of religious belief behind their motive. Of course there are those who are just bent...MALE OR FEMALE.
None of this has any bearing on the discussion at hand. We are specifically discussing the role of religious leaders in this horrific and disgusting phenomenon. We can start different posts for School leaders, coaches or parents.
I personally think those that simply brush this under the carpet are wrong and in the end they likely will need more help down the road. Im sure when you have children you would feel the same way if your particular Pastor raped your child.

Your digging a hole on that, we are to all assume that most domestic/family abuse has motives created by religion? I think you've lost sight that most who don't like the thread are because there is too much focus on a religious sect when this is truly a social issue. What about substance abuse which then leads to domestic violence? I think that's high up on the food chain for origins.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

You are wrong to pretend that the Catholic church has been alone in trying to cover up sexual abuse.

Good thing that I never claimed that they were alone in trying to cover it up then.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

However I'm sure I could count over 20 people I've known who was abused by a family member. I'd say 80 to 90% of these victims never have brought charges against their abuser. Most did tell another family member at some point and were told to be quiet or even called an outright liar.

I was talking about an organization making deliberate reasoned decisions. You're talking about family units. I don't see where the comparison has any meaning in the context of what I was talking about.

Though the reasoning behind the silencing is the same, it's about authority and power and pride (well and jail in the case of the family)

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Society is changing very slowly. So seemingly is the Catholic church.

So it would seem. For people it's changing because the social consciousness has shifted to not blaming the victims and supporting the victims, making it easier for people to come forward. Societies change slowly.

The church is changing because of the light being shined on the darkness within the church, which is ultimately the purpose discussions like this one serve. Rather that people being ignorant of the issue, talking about it makes everyone aware of it, so when it happens to them or close to them they can stand up rather than obeying the authority which has threatened them and their families and swept it under the rug.

[photon]

None of the child abuse cases I have personal knowledge of had any involvement of substance abuse, and maybe half were in a religious setting (i.e. the perp was in a leadership role in the church, none of them Catholic), the other half family type settings.

FWIW, keep in mind that each of our anecdotal evidences about demographics really doesn't mean much with respect to real trends.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by photon

None of the child abuse cases I have personal knowledge of had any involvement of substance abuse, and maybe half were in a religious setting (i.e. the perp was in a leadership role in the church, none of them Catholic), the other half family type settings.

FWIW, keep in mind that each of our anecdotal evidences about demographics really doesn't mean much with respect to real trends.

Wikipedia isn't all-knowing by any means but I would use this as a start to support most child abuse and domestic violence does not stem from religion but from other psychological factors. Domestic abuse can happen in any household even a religious one albeit I have never heard of an example outside of someone who gets upset over someone spanking their child.

Here is the full site link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse#Causes

"Causes
Child abuse is a complex problem which has multiple causes.[11] Understanding the causes of abuse is crucial to addressing the problem of child abuse.[12] Parents who physically abuse their spouses are more likely to physically abuse their children.[13] However, it is difficult to know whether marital strife is a cause of child abuse, or if both the marital strife and abuse are caused by tendencies in the abuser.[13]
Substance abuse is a major contributing factor to child abuse. One study found that parents with documented substance abuse, most commonly alcohol, cocaine, and heroin, were much more likely to mistreat their children, and were also much more likely to reject court-ordered services and treatments.[14]
Another study found that over two thirds of cases of child maltreatment involved parents with substance abuse problems. This study specifically found relationships between alcohol and physical abuse, and between cocaine and sexual abuse.[15]
In 2009 CBS News reported that child abuse in the United States had increased during the economic recession. It gave the example of a father who had never been the primary care-taker of the children. Now that the father was in that role, the children began to come in with injuries"

[photon]

Originally Posted by Finny61

Wikipedia isn't all-knowing by any means but I would use this as a start to support most child abuse and domestic violence does not stem from religion but from other psychological factors. Domestic abuse can happen in any household even a religious one albeit I have never heard of an example outside of someone who gets upset over someone spanking their child.

I think we more talking about sexual abuse here, and I never claimed most child sexual abuse stems from religion. Someone already pointed out a large percentage of sexual abuse cases are family members.

I've seen plenty of abuse in religious homes, and non religious.. I'd be surprised if the per capita rate of sexual abuse changed very much from religious vs. non religious households.

[rubecube]

I think a lot of the "quit bashing religion" crowd are missing the point. None of the atheists are saying this issue is exclusive to the Catholic church. However, what is rampant to the Church, and especially the clergy, is the rampant, widespread attempts to sweep the incidents under the rug. And this article represents a ridiculous attempt to marginalize an absolutely monstrous crime by making it sound commonplace.

Firefly, sorry to hear about your situtation. I would never assume to put myself in your shoes or question your motives as far as reporting the issue goes. That being said, I'm sure if your uncle had an extensive history of sexual abuse, with several different children, the matter would needed to have been handled criminally. It's also possible that you might have felt differently about reporting it to the police if you were worried about your uncle becoming a repeat offender.

I also don't really buy that the motivation behind these cover-ups is the protection of the children. The best way to protect these kids isn't to threaten them and their families, and move the priest to a different community where he can hurt more kids. The solution is to lock these sickos up and not give them the chance to re-offend.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Finny61

Wikipedia isn't all-knowing by any means but I would use this as a start to support most child abuse and domestic violence does not stem from religion but from other psychological factors.

I don't know if anyone is saying it "stems from religion". I know I'm not. The gripe is that it's covered up by the authorities of certain religions.

The issue is not "members of religion X are bad", the issue is "the big shots in religion X make excuses or cover up the bad things a few of its people do, when what they should be doing is turning these guys in and not saying that it happens in other sects, so we're not really that bad".

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I don't know if anyone is saying it "stems from religion". I know I'm not. The gripe is that it's covered up by the authorities of certain religions.

The issue is not "members of religion X are bad", the issue is "the big shots in religion X make excuses or cover up the bad things a few of its people do, when what they should be doing is turning these guys in and not saying that it happens in other sects, so we're not really that bad".

I think he's referring to me Rouge...I mentioned this:

Of course if we started looking into the reasons why many "family" members did what they did to their daughters/sons, Im sure we might find some type of religious belief behind their motive. Of course there are those who are just bent...MALE OR FEMALE.

Of course where I was taking this to was that a % of family members use religion as a basis for rape as well....certainly not all.
Of course it is meaningless when compared to the atrocity of the Catholic Church and its blatant coverup of this issue.

From the article:

"The many thousands of victims of abuse deserve the international community to hold the Vatican to account, something it has been unwilling to do, so far. Both states and children's organisations must unite to pressurise the Vatican to open its files, change its procedures worldwide, and report suspected abusers to civil authorities."

In the US, churches have paid more than $2bn (£1.25bn) in compensation to victims.

The Ryan Report, published last May, revealed that beatings and humiliation by nuns and priests were common at institutions that held up to 30,000 children. A nine-year investigation found that Catholic priests and nuns for decades terrorised thousands of boys and girls,

The Catholic Church simply deflects its criticism:

He also quoted statistics from the Christian Scientist Monitor newspaper to show that most US churches being hit by child sex abuse allegations were Protestant and that sexual abuse within Jewish communities was common.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Finny61

I'd be more worried about the public school system in which we put our trust in teachers to guide, care, and tutor our children. It doesn't downplay the concerns in the Catholic church but to only focus your concern and statistics on that and not secular society makes for a very poor approach to the board. Your attacking one segment of something that surrounds every part of society whether it's encompassing a religious sect or your neighbor's dayhome. No difference. So to me your looking through a pretty damn small window pane, there is a lot more out there you are failing to oblige, and its a hell of a lot bigger then the Catholic church or religion period.

The issue at hand is not who is actually the pedophiles per-se, but rather why the church doesn't straight out condemn the actions for what they are instead of twisting them to promote another of their beliefs.

Name one school board that has stated when a teacher gets arrested that the teacher isn't a pedophile, he/she is a homosexual.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Hmmmm, so 4 threads in 9 months is constant? Massive, massive hate-on for Obama. I am overwhelming the CP off topic board.




Anyways, Thor....like the Iraq war threads of yester-year the religion ones just simple rehash the same things....over and over and over again.

THE ONE on the other hand keeps doing a helluva Jimmy Carter impression.

lol you know how people view it man, I don't think you do its just when people are sensitive to a topic they overblow it.

Hey Jimmy Carter left his church because he was sick of their treatment of women, there is hope for even his evil

Anyhow, dude its all about discussion/debate, anyone who suggests limits or tries to dictate what is worthy of discussion is someone I will always fight against.

I think we both agree on that right

[DuffMan]

Are they priests before they become pedophiles? or are they pedophiles, before they become priests?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Are they priests before they become pedophiles? or are they pedophiles, before they become priests?

I'm sure the homosexual lobby will find some "scientist" who will claim after doing some primary research that pedophiles are born that way. But to answer your question I suspect that that more than a few practicing pedophiles chose a profession like a priest in order to gain access to their victims.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I'm sure the homosexual lobby will find some "scientist" who will claim after doing some primary research that pedophiles are born that way.

WTF? What do the two have to do with each other?

[Resolute 14]

Nice attempt at deflection, Calgaryborn. Let's stay focused on the crimes of these "Christian's".

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Are they priests before they become pedophiles? or are they pedophiles, before they become priests?

I would say they are priests before they become pedophiles.........

Why?
Because I think the celibate lifestyle that a priest practises lends itself to sexual abuse of kids out of the frustration that comes from a conflict between beliefs and desires. They abuse the kids because they are so naive, accessible, etc........

[troutman]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I would say they are priests before they become pedophiles.........

Why?
Because I think the celibate lifestyle that a priest practises lends itself to sexual abuse of kids out of the frustration that comes from a conflict between beliefs and desires. They abuse the kids because they are so naive, accessible, etc........

I don't think that is quite right. I think that a profession that requires celibacy attracts people who are sexual deviants to begin with, because they don't fit into other societal roles or institutions. The profession also provides them access to victims.

This has also been a big problem in the scouting movement.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by flip

When did anyone in this thread say your friend is a bad person for being religious?

Seriously, the only thing more annoying than the Catholic church condoning the molestation of children is people who come into this thread and make stupid posts defending religion for no apparent reason. It started with Killer Carlson and just spiraled.

If you don't like hearing bad things about the religion that you prescribe to, or that your friends prescribe to, stick your head back in the sand.

We are talking about an organization that has not only condoned but also willingly covered up and marginalized the molestation of children. The fact that you are accusing us "atheists" of attempting to link practicing Catholics to the child molestation by the Catholic Church as an organization is pathetic and tiring.

I really tried to stay out of this thread because the anti-atheists showed up early and made an attempt to act extra dense but I just can't. How you or anyone else in this thread can try and deflect just blame on the organization of the Catholic church by sensationalizing us so called "anti-religious" types is sickening and embarrassing.

Why don't you leave your friend out of this and try and concentrate on the fact that in the last who know how many years (2000? 500? 100?) the Catholic Church has had explicit involvement in the molestation of innocent children across the world and NA.

That isn't to mention the numerous other atrocities they have explicitly been a part of and the ones, like the holocaust, that they implicitly supported.

Thanks for this. I noticed how not single one of the group you called out (or anyone, for that matter) came anywhere near this. Excellent post.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

So are you saying that perhaps if I do a little more "personal contemplation", I won't criticize an organization that has allowed its representatives to rape children and go unpunished?

I'm not generalizing an entire faith. This is about pedophile priests and the excuses that are made for them, not the "congregation".

Anyway, what do you think of this Tomasi fellow's idea that men who rape 14-year-old boys are not pedophiles, but just homosexuals with a penchant for children?

Perhaps I'm alone on this, but I actually read that as a little of a backhanded attack on homosexuality. A little bit of the let's-redefine-the-terms game saying the church doesn't have problems of pedophiles, it's just the gays. Those darned gays are the ones up to all the buggering. A bit of spin on the issues.

"It's not a church problem. It's a homosexuality problem" is a bit how it comes off to me.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I'm sure the homosexual lobby will find some "scientist" who will claim after doing some primary research that pedophiles are born that way. But to answer your question I suspect that that more than a few practicing pedophiles chose a profession like a priest in order to gain access to their victims.

Aah, the dreaded homosexual lobby, backed up by "scientists". Could their be a more nefarious alliance?

One problem with that is that most (I would think) pedophiles are men preying on girls. What does the "homosexual lobby" get out of giving them an excuse? Nothing. They actually lose on that deal.

If you are going to call priests molesting boys a homosexual thing, you'll have to agree that men preying on girls is a hetero concern, no? You want to be tossed in that barrel? Me neither.

[Ford Prefect]

Computers crash, politicians lie, and clerics are pedophiles. These truths I know. They're as fundamental as I Think Therefore I Am.

Oh yeah, and good single malt kills cold germs.