Another Random Swarming in Calgary

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

I think several countries would have something to say about that safest place in the world claim. We have a rising crime rate, and apparently, increasingly obvious displays of senseless brutality.

Possibly, but they are probably in Scandinavia, and I don't think they have some hardass draconian legal system.

Originally Posted by Thunderball

You're trying to tell me what we have works?

Well it ain't perfect, but yeah, it works.

The Americans use your approach to some extent. Does that work? They have a lot more crime and mayhem going on down there, so I'm going to have to say "no, it doesn't".

Originally Posted by Thunderball

The root causes are obvious:
because they feel they can or because they feel they have to.

It's a little more complicated than that.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Possibly, but they are probably in Scandinavia, and I don't think they have some hardass draconian legal system.



Well it ain't perfect, but yeah, it works.

The Americans use your approach to some extent. Does that work? They have a lot more crime and mayhem going on down there, so I'm going to have to say "no, it doesn't".


It's a little more complicated than that.

Well, Japan and Singapore come to mind, and they have justice systems that are very strict...Singapore's on the edge of extreme... so there's cases that it works. I'm not up on the justice systems in Scandinavia, but I would wager their systems are at least as stringent as Canada's, with a much smaller and more homogenous population.

The Americans are a bad example, since for one, every State has different laws, and they have much deeper racial/ethnic conflict. Even so, you'd find Winnipeg, Edmonton and Regina fit in quite nicely within a US city ranking of crime rates. This isn't exactly the unlocked door utopia Michael Moore might have you believe.

And yes, that is a very simplistic answer to the root cause of crime. I admitted that it gets much more complicated from there. But those two points are where it always starts.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Discussing these types of issues always interests me because I personally grew up with two different friends who both have turned out to be major criminals... all while seemingly being brought up in fairly good families IMO.

One of the guys, was raised in an extremely strict family where they pretty much lived in extreme fear of their father. He didn't dare do anything when we were young that he thought his dad would not approve of and after school, would scurry home right away to meet the after-school curfew his dad set out for him. He'd stay in on weekends and be occupied with homework or home tutoring.

Checking in with other friends (I don't talk to him any more), apparently the guy has been in and out of jail and is pretty high up in the criminal world with people who answer to him.

What happened???!

Another guy, raised in a religious family, baptized at birth like his brothers and sisters. Parents were divorced, but they kept things very civil and even spent XMAS together "as a family" for the kids. Father was again fairly strict when they were young.

Last I heard, the younger brother just got out of jail recently and the older one is another big shot in that world.

Again, what the hell happened??

In both these cases, I knew them extremely well growing up and neither of the families ever showed the tendencies being discussed in this thread (spoiling the kids, not disciplining the kids when they do wrong, etc.). And to add to this, both kids came from upper-class families. I don't get it.

[flamey_mcflame]

am i the only person(freak) who would love a big brother society..im sure there are pitfalls that i havent considered...but imagine a world where people wouldnt have to be worried about being raped,murdered or robbed..we have the technology....obviously im not going to expand this into a 100 page dissertation but ..the idea of good people benefiting and bad people being punished sounds alright by me....seems like society is heading that way anyways...lets see what society looks like in 20 years..this world is changing at an incredible pace

[WesternCanadaKing]

Originally Posted by flamey_mcflame

am i the only person(freak) who would love a big brother society..im sure there are pitfalls that i havent considered...but imagine a world where people wouldnt have to be worried about being raped,murdered or robbed..we have the technology....obviously im not going to expand this into a 100 page dissertation but ..the idea of good people benefiting and bad people being punished sounds alright by me....seems like society is heading that way anyways...lets see what society looks like in 20 years..this world is changing at an incredible pace

No.

There are CCTV cameras all over England and it has done jack to solve crime. Plus, I think it's better to just draw the line, and say no to Big Brother. Because what starts out as a little can turn into a lot, and over time we will find more and more invasions of privacy to make us 'safer'. Yeah, imagine a world where people wouldn't have to be worried about being raped, murdered, or robbed? Not happening, even with Big Brother technology.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by flamey_mcflame

am i the only person(freak) who would love a big brother society..im sure there are pitfalls that i havent considered...but imagine a world where people wouldnt have to be worried about being raped,murdered or robbed..we have the technology....obviously im not going to expand this into a 100 page dissertation but ..the idea of good people benefiting and bad people being punished sounds alright by me....seems like society is heading that way anyways...lets see what society looks like in 20 years..this world is changing at an incredible pace

Have you read 1984?


I personally prefer freedom to do what I want, when I want, how I want. The rules are created to give some order and allow as many people as possible to enjoy those freedoms. But as soon as other people have the right to know about everything you do, and soon as it becomes a "Big Brother" society, part of your humanity dies. Even if you never do anything wrong, you still notice the loss of privacy. And with the loss of privacy goes some of your identity.

And if you think privacy doesn't matter, feel free to post your real name and a picture of yourself naked. Or how about showing your acquaintances your bank balances? If you don't like these ideas, then yes you do want some privacy.

And interestingly, London England has thousands of cameras recording what goes on all over the city. Recent studies has shown it doesn't help solve crime. (link) so exactly what does a "big brother" society solve?

[WesternCanadaKing]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

And interestingly, London England has thousands of cameras recording what goes on all over the city. Recent studies has shown it doesn't help solve crime. (link) so exactly what does a "big brother" society solve?

FATA

Originally Posted by WesternCanadaKing

There are CCTV cameras all over England and it has done jack to solve crime.

Ok, I'll shut up

[flamey_mcflame]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Have you read 1984?


I personally prefer freedom to do what I want, when I want, how I want. The rules are created to give some order and allow as many people as possible to enjoy those freedoms. But as soon as other people have the right to know about everything you do, and soon as it becomes a "Big Brother" society, part of your humanity dies. Even if you never do anything wrong, you still notice the loss of privacy. And with the loss of privacy goes some of your identity.

And if you think privacy doesn't matter, feel free to post your real name and a picture of yourself naked. Or how about showing your acquaintances your bank balances? If you don't like these ideas, then yes you do want some privacy.

And interestingly, London England has thousands of cameras recording what goes on all over the city. Recent studies has shown it doesn't help solve crime. (link) so exactly what does a "big brother" society solve?

you dont see..im talking more extreme than cameras...im talking human gps,dna tracking,iris scan..whatever revolutionary new ideas comeout..secondly..alot of people know about personal details about me..the banks know how much money i have..the gov't knows all my bio...etc....our privacy is already limited..in the future..restricting illegal acts doesnt necessarily mean loss of freedom...technology and certain authority figures will be able to track you but that doesnt mean that john or jane doe does....cameras are outdated in my big brother future...and of course there will still be crime..but common thuggery will vanish because most people who commit violent acts are not geniuses...i dont have a crystal ball here...but seriously..just look at the advancement in technology...and i think with dna advancement's ...just imagine what humans will look like in a 100 years..people might think this is a radical concept...i just can't see it not happening....

[WesternCanadaKing]

Originally Posted by flamey_mcflame

you dont see..im talking more extreme than cameras...im talking human gps,dna tracking,iris scan..whatever revolutionary new ideas comeout..secondly..alot of people know about personal details about me..the banks know how much money i have..the gov't knows all my bio...etc....our privacy is already limited..in the future..restricting illegal acts doesnt necessarily mean loss of freedom...technology and certain authority figures will be able to track you but that doesnt mean that john or jane doe does....cameras are outdated in my big brother future...and of course there will still be crime..but common thuggery will vanish because most people who commit violent acts are not geniuses...i dont have a crystal ball here...but seriously..just look at the advancement in technology...and i think with dna advancement's ...just imagine what humans will look like in a 100 years..people might think this is a radical concept...i just can't see it not happening....

So, the government will know where you are all the time and know exactly what you're doing/saying? Nope, certainly no loss of freedom therel defnitely isn't a system that would be abused. And 2+2=5 right?

Gotta love that doublethink.

[flamey_mcflame]

Originally Posted by WesternCanadaKing

So, the government will know where you are all the time and know exactly what you're doing/saying? Yes, I do believe thats a loss of freedom right there. And is a system ripe for a abuse, but who cares 2+2=5 right?

Gotta love that doublethink.

we already live in a world where we trade off freedom for security..thats why there are laws.....my argument for the future is predicated on the fact that if people could trade off more privacy and freedom to prevent murders,identity thefts etc. i think it will happen in the future.,,....what do you see the world looking like in 50 years..status quo??

[WesternCanadaKing]

Originally Posted by flamey_mcflame

we already live in a world where we trade off freedom for security..thats why there are laws.....my argument for the future is predicated on the fact that if people could trade off more privacy and freedom to prevent murders,identity thefts etc. i think it will happen in the future.,,....what do you see the world looking like in 50 years..status quo??

I agree with you, I do see a Big Brother society down the road. But that is not a good thing at all, and have no idea how you could see it as such.

[LGA]

I agree with the early sentiments about how fighting used to have a code. I still figure that if you have a problem with someone settle it the old fashioned way, who brings a knife to a fist fight? Swarming is also as cowardly as you can get. One of my friends got swarmed a couple years ago, screwed up his jaw, had a bad concussion all because some guys didn't like the way he looked or something.

Saddens me that our society has collapsed to the point where stabbings, beatings and generaly non-sensical violence is a main stay. I used to love walking out at night, just enjoying the night breeze, now I snap around at every odd noise or car that gets way too near.

[flamey_mcflame]

Originally Posted by WesternCanadaKing

I agree with you, I do see a Big Brother society down the road. But that is not a good thing at all, and have no idea how you could see it as such.

well..let me give you an example of what the future could look like...the gov't and technological watchdogs can track everyone's movements...but the only time that we actually review your actions is when a crime is committed..ie. ..murder.....well in the future that crime will be solved instantaneously..it wont be able to prevent crimes..but as any sociologist can tell you...most crimes are committed by multiple offenders...so if you remove these offenders crimes will drop significantly...and people wont commit crimes if they know they will be caught..it could something as simple as some sort of implant ...i obviously havent thought of every possible positive or negative outcome by living in this kind of society..but theres an example where you still have freedoms without the government tsk tsking your every action....and rather than thinking of privacy(freedom) and security as opposite ends of spectrum..they are actually on the same side...my freedom to go out tonight and not worry about being swarmed or mugged is enhanced by security rather than restricted..

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Hopefully the federal Conservatives' plan to make changes to the young offenders act will have some teeth. I remember being 12 when it was introduced, and we all laughed at all the stuff we could now get away with, and how our friends a few months younger than use could literally get away with murder.

The young offenders act was replaced in 2003, so if the Conservatives are planning to change it, someone should let them know it was already done.

[PowerPlayoffs06]

Originally Posted by flamey_mcflame

well..let me give you an example of what the future could look like...the gov't and technological watchdogs can track everyone's movements...but the only time that we actually review your actions is when a crime is committed..ie. ..murder.....well in the future that crime will be solved instantaneously..it wont be able to prevent crimes..but as any sociologist can tell you...most crimes are committed by multiple offenders...so if you remove these offenders crimes will drop significantly...and people wont commit crimes if they know they will be caught..it could something as simple as some sort of implant ...i obviously havent thought of every possible positive or negative outcome by living in this kind of society..but theres an example where you still have freedoms without the government tsk tsking your every action....and rather than thinking of privacy(freedom) and security as opposite ends of spectrum..they are actually on the same side...my freedom to go out tonight and not worry about being swarmed or mugged is enhanced by security rather than restricted..

And about the time this is all happening is when some corrupt government party will stage a coup of the country and declair himself Emperor. Then us poor citizens can't do anything to fight back and retake our country because the government will then use these technologies to know everything that's going on. Resistance cells would be impossible to form. There'd be no way to combat the tyranny.

Far fetched? Yes. Impossible? Not on the slippery slope you're talking about.

What you're talking about has already started in some degree though. Like at Disney World now, you have to use your fingerprint to access the park. If you dont want to use your fingerprint, you're welcome to refund your admission and go home.

Wasn't there also talk about iris scanning and recognition technology being used in airports?

I don't think microchips embedded under the skin are that far off. They'll be optional at first, for convience since they'll store your credit card and banking info, ID info, stuff like that, but eventually they'll become so pervasive in the population that everyday technologies will begin to phase out anything that doesn't use the chips...

Anyways, Im starting to sound more like a conspiracy theorist than I want to.

[worth]

I think there would be a revolution in this country if the government tried to force implanted chips on the citizen.

But I agree, they are slowly being implemented into society. We'll soon have no choice but to have our iris scanned and fingerprints taken. The cashless control grid society awaits us. Some people will get a chip implanted in them because they can go to the store and wave their hand over a scanning machine and pay instantly. This way, no one has to force anything, and no one revolts.

They could also do it like if you were ever convicted of a crime, implant a chip that says so, like a permanent record. Get arrested then get your dna taken, goes into a central database the government can track and get a chip to track your move. I don't think this is too far off.

Me personally, i'd much rather live in an unsafe world that is more or less free than one that is a police state where anyone who jaywalks gets taken to room 101.

I'm an advocate of the right to carry a concealed weapon. I believe this government basically says, if you're in trouble call 911 and wait 5 minutes for the police to show up. Well in some instances that is not possible. Canadians should have the right to defend themselves. People shouldn't have to fear walking down the street at night, and perhaps if criminals knew that some people were licensed and could legally carry a weapon, they'd think twice about some crimes. Just the way I see it.

[JohnnyFlame]

I would think there is virtually no way we don't end up in a Big Brother scenario. Science and technology are the new "solves everything utopia" and the masses are huddled at the altar. Camera's everywhere, monitoring of activity at work, as you drive etc. etc. Any more terrorist incidents in North America and it will ramp up 100 times what it is now. Of course corporations will want to make it safe for their workers/patrons and install every techno device available. We will give up more freedoms to let police forces become more invasive. You can easily see how the crackdown could happen to anybody who is outside of whatever the mainstream thinking is at the time.

I would say we are pretty well convinced that our armies, police forces etc. can't keep us safe so next we go with crank up the tech and put people under as much scrutiny as possible.

You can picture some of those movies where there are all these clones (either tech clones or people who act brainwashed to act like clones) coming true.

Imagine everybody has a chip inserted and for instance pedophiles can be tracked. One comes within 20 ft. of a child and a pain sensor is set off until they move away. IF we had the tech to do that how could we resist the urge to protect even if it meant severly limiting people's movements?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Imagine everybody has a chip inserted and for instance pedophiles can be tracked. One comes within 20 ft. of a child and a pain sensor is set off until they move away. IF we had the tech to do that how could we resist the urge to protect even if it meant severly limiting people's movements?

Then there would be a thread on CP about gangs of kids swarming pedofiles because they know the pain chip would be activated, and there'd be nothing the pedofile could do.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like that idea.

[JimmytheT]

Originally Posted by flamey_mcflame

am i the only person(freak) who would love a big brother society..im sure there are pitfalls that i havent considered...but imagine a world where people wouldnt have to be worried about being raped,murdered or robbed..we have the technology....obviously im not going to expand this into a 100 page dissertation but ..the idea of good people benefiting and bad people being punished sounds alright by me....seems like society is heading that way anyways...lets see what society looks like in 20 years..this world is changing at an incredible pace

Okay, I've read a few of your postings, and now I am reluctantly putting on my grammar police hat:

As far as I know, you are the only person to replace all forms of puncuation with elipses (...). Periods and commas are designed to create proper sentence structure, for the ease of reading. So are capital letters at the start of sentences, as well as paragraphs.

[Sparks]

I think there's a major factor that we're maybe not considering here. A consistent percentage of the population is made up by psycho/sociopaths - something like 1 or 2 percent. A minority of these people are true, biological psychopaths, who actually have different 'brain chemistry' and process decisions differently than you and I. They don't respond to punishment, they don't show remorse (because they don't really feel it), they don't see why you shouldn't do something immoral, etc. It has nothing to do with parenting - it's a genetic defect. Some of these kids may turn out to be psychopaths.

If we're talking about sociopaths, than parenting might be a factor. But, I doubt that the suggestions people have raised, like a lack of discipline, are the problem. It's probably more likely a case of consistent abuse/neglect combined with the kids' predisposition to anti-social behaviour. Recipe for success.

As our population increases, the number of people who fit into these categories probably increases as well.

Maybe "lack of discipline" - if that is the case - will cause or is causing other problems in our society, but I personally doubt this is one of them.