Atheists, a few questions to you...

[moon]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Sure you did. When we discussed the issue last year and the vast majority of posters here said that Santa puts gifts under the *CHRIST*mas tree because the three wise men gave gifts to Jesus.

Jewish children typically do not have Santa come to their houses.
Muslim children typically do not have Santa come to their houses.
As an athiest, I would have have my children believe in Santa Clause.

To believe that the tradition of Santa Claus is not intertwined with Christianity is assinine.

My point to that section, which is why I don't think this off topic, was that during that debate people were just talking about Santa being non-inclusive of people of other faiths. As if those without faith didn't belong in the conversation at all. The athiests are always forgotten. And when we do speak out about things like "God" being in the national anthem, we get shouted down.

As an atheist I can say I have never felt left out or forgotten.

I would say that Santa, particularly in NA, is as much if not more intertwined with our culture rather than religion. There are numerous people/families that celebrate Christmas without any religious conotations or activities. Christmas doesn't have to be about the birth of Jesus, Three Kings etc. It can be a time to celebrate family, charity or just the greed of recieving presents.

Those muslim, jewish and atheist kids were not going to have to sit on Jesus' lap and worship him as the messiah. They had the opportunity to sit on the fat guy in the offices lap and pretend that they can tell him what they would like.

Not sure about this Christmas party specifically, but at the ones I have been at there have been fun activities for the kids that did not involve religion, decent food and entertainment for adults and are a way to thank employees and let them have a little fun. I have yet to attend or hear of any Christmas party that involved the conversion or ostracising of people from different faiths.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Dion

Good grief! A wedding ceremony in a church is NOT forcing religion on anyone. For the life of me I can't understand why people get hung up on this! Both my brother and sister are athiests and were married in a church. The same applies for my athiest friends. NOT one of them had any beefs about being married in a church. You'd be surprised my many non believers get married in a church.

I have no problem with people getting married in a church, but if they don't want to get married there they shouldn't be forced because parents want them to whether they are paying them or not. Just like they shouldn't be forced not to get married outside a church if they don't want to.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by moon

I have no problem with people getting married in a church, but if they don't want to get married there they shouldn't be forced because parents want them to whether they are paying them or not. Just like they shouldn't be forced not to get married outside a church if they don't want to.

Nobodies forcing them to do anything.. They're free to say no to the parents and pay for their own.

[Nehkara]

1. Are you vocal about your atheism or do you shy away when religious discussion occur?

I am vocal, perhaps too much so but I always express my opinion.


2. Do you politely agree to baptisms, circumcisions, weddings in churches, etc.. In order to appease religious family or societal pressures?

No. I either refuse or I am uncomfortable and someone usually hears about it.


3. Considering the state of the world today with radicalism in religion from the USA to Iran at a noticeably growing rate, do you feel more responsibility to speak your beliefs and fight to spread atheism to friends/family?

Absolutely. In my humble opinion, religion is the cause of many societal and political issues in the world today and I try my best to express my views and open the eyes of those around me.


4. Are you as an Atheist looking for a more focused plan and leadership online or locally to focus your efforts? Or would you prefer to not be involved in any Atheistic movements?

I think that it is important to spread logic and reason rather than hate and repression. I would be interested in finding out more about any such organizations.


5. Finally, are you optimistic that hundred's of years from now religion will be much less of an influence on this world or are you of the belief that we are going to be under religious influence for a long long time to come?

It is my opinion that religion will die out slowly but surely and will be replaced by a strong interest in science by the majority. Religious atrocities, discriminations, and lies will be the main catalyst for change. More people will begin questioning the need for religious institutions now that most of the questions they answered at their inception are and will be answered much more satisfactorily by science.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Dion

Nobodies forcing them to do anything.. They're free to say no to the parents and pay for their own.

I am saying that the parents shouldn't be so selfish that they would make the couple make that choice. Of course they can say no and I said that if it were me I would do so. I just don't see how any parent could make the couple make that decision.

Wouldn't a parent want their child to have the best wedding they could have?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by moon

I am saying that the parents shouldn't be so selfish that they would make the couple make that choice. Of course they can say no and I said that if it were me I would do so. I just don't see how any parent could make the couple make that decision.

Wouldn't a parent want their child to have the best wedding they could have?

The vast majority of people don't have this hang up that you and some others have about being married in a church. For most, it's a one day thing and it's over. They get a wedding, they may not have been able to afford, and the family peace is intact.

[FlamesAddiction]

Very interesting thread to read through. I find it somewhat interesting that most of the atheists claim to not try and spread their atheism. As an agnostic (I believe in something, but make no definate claims to a specific religon), I find that many of the atheists are just as pushy as the followers of organized religon. I have a feeling that not everyone in being totally honest.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Very interesting thread to read through. I find it somewhat interesting that most of the atheists claim to not try and spread their atheism. As an agnostic (I believe in something, but make no definate claims to a specific religon), I find that many of the atheists are just as pushy as the followers of organized religon. I have a feeling that not everyone in being totally honest.

I find most atheists are satisfied just having someone deny religious faith, even if they don't buy in with atheistic faith. It's kind of like a 'well, at least you're not on their side' reaction. Similarly, I think most religious folk are placated by an agnostic denial of atheism as well.

Really, I find the agnostic 'meh, what do I know?' approach just makes it a lot easier to get along with people.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Dion

The vast majority of people don't have this hang up that you and some others have about being married in a church. For most, it's a one day thing and it's over. They get a wedding, they may not have been able to afford, and the family peace is intact.

It's a matter of principle - if you deny the authority of religion, don't you think you deny the authority of priests, ministers, mullahs, rabbis and all the other mumbo-jumbo merchants? Therefore, wouldn't you think that there is no moral basis for such a person to be able to preside at your marriage? Saying it "doesn't really matter" almost seems like denigrating the institution of marriage itself, "I'm willing to compromise my principles because after all, it's only a marriage."

I doubt very much I could even marry someone who was more than a lukewarm believer; one of you has to compromise and it seems more likely to be the atheist, as you cannot reason with someone's non-rational beliefs, while that someone can certainly affect your rational perception of whether or not it is worth endlessly fighting about religion.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I find that many of the atheists are just as pushy as the followers of organized religon. I have a feeling that not everyone in being totally honest.

Well, the ones that aren't pushy are the ones you may not even realize are atheists. Most religious people aren't pushy, either, but the loudmouth idiots get all the attention, just like with any other issue.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by jammies

It's a matter of principle - if you deny the authority of religion, don't you think you deny the authority of priests, ministers, mullahs, rabbis and all the other mumbo-jumbo merchants? Therefore, wouldn't you think that there is no moral basis for such a person to be able to preside at your marriage? Saying it "doesn't really matter" almost seems like denigrating the institution of marriage itself, "I'm willing to compromise my principles because after all, it's only a marriage.

Of course most are denying the authority of priests etc. Still churches are willing to marry couples that are not members of their faith. Maybe the problem is with the church? Could it be they need that money badly?

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Dion

Good grief! A wedding ceremony in a church is NOT forcing religion on anyone. For the life of me I can't understand why people get hung up on this! Both my brother and sister are athiests and were married in a church. The same applies for my athiest friends. NOT one of them had any beefs about being married in a church. You'd be surprised my many non believers get married in a church.

You win. I have selected your comment to respond to firstly, but before I do I have to say how impressed I am at the responses and various opinions of fellow Atheists (even though many of you mispell it!)

With my own badly worded question I intended to ask Atheists IF they would in their own life allow circumcision, baptism, weddings in a church, IF it was for them. Not if it was for others. I will personally not miss such events for family and friends simply out of belief even though I'm 100% sure they all understand I am there for them, not the religion.

As to being supportive of marriage in a church as an atheist... Well the big thing is Religion uses ceremony/tradition in order to perpetuate its existance, it is no coincidence that it uses birth, marriage, death as MAJOR ceremonies to re-enforce religion to people because no one can escape these important moments in a average lifespan.

So like much of theism and human history.. Do you support ceremonies that support a system that goes against your own for societal pressures. Conformity is a KEY element of religion and cults. As an Atheist, the idea we just be conformist and hide in the background concerns me, and I will explain more completely in my next post as best as I can.

[Thor]

Ok so here is my response to the questions I put forth, ironically when I posted this I didnt even consider what my own responses would be, so here are those:

1. Are you vocal about your atheism or do you shy away when religious discussion occur?

I am not actively seeking debate, but I do not shy away from it when the issue comes up. I certainly find myself giving DVD's of documentaries and sending links of great atheistic books to my friends who are of course of the same belief.

2. Do you politely agree to baptisms, circumcisions, weddings in churches, etc.. In order to appease religious family or societal pressures?

Well I misworded this question, heres my reply to it and what I intended (the agreement to your own personal life, your own kids, your own marriage, etc..)

I will always attend friends weddings, funerals, etc.. I do this simply to be there for the importance of such events, but my friends clearly understand my own views of these events. I would never be married in a church or by a priest. I would never allow the butchery of circumcision as we know it; it does damage, hurts sensitivity and is a pretty barbaric thing to do to a baby boy. The origins of Circumcision are also at best ridiculous and most people polled in the USA about it do it for 'looks' and not much else. Again IF god created man in his image, why do we cut up his image with a violent and damaging procedure to his baby boys?

3. Considering the state of the world today with radicalism in religion from the USA to Iran at a noticeably growing rate, do you feel more responsibility to speak your beliefs and fight to spread atheism to friends/family?

I've grown up with mostly Atheistic friends, and most of my family. I always had the belief that I was not going to be like religious people and not push my beliefs on anyone. What harm could religion do? Well as I've grown older, the effects of religion are no longer something I can sit back as a polite Atheist and sit idly by. I will not preach or force my beliefs, but I won't sit quietly by anymore considering we have the 3 great monotheisms focused on spreading their agendas on all the world.

Its no longer, "believe what you want." ...... The truth is there is movements in the USA who are teaching lawyers to fight for jesus (jesus camp) and to change US law such as abortion laws. There are plenty of religious movements fighting to tell you and me what laws and rules we all have to live by.

We don't start a movement by hiding our beliefs and we don't get anywhere by hiding and conforming to a society ruled by theistic rule.

4. Are you as an Atheist looking for a more focused plan and leadership online or locally to focus your efforts? Or would you prefer to not be involved in any Atheistic movements?

I am starting to get more involved, to be honest I was like most Atheists where I felt a movement was much like religion and therefore it was something wrong for our belief system. I see know that promoting truth, critical thinking, reasoning, healthy skepticism/debate, etc.. is not a bad thing! If the world isn't exposed to the option of religion and that smart sensible people are not speaking out then obviously we rely on religion beating itself up which of course it will do as more people become educated and truly examine the nonsense of the bible and its beginnings.

5. Finally, are you optimistic that hundred's of years from now religion will be much less of an influence on this world or are you of the belief that we are going to be under religious influence for a long long time to come?

I'm unsure. A good portion of the evangelicals see the 2nd coming of Jesus as a near future situation. So why bother worrying about war, environment, etc.. In an age of incredible technology where we live longer, can cure amazingly difficult ailments, we still talk of Homeopathic medicine, and such nonsense from ancient times (which was just as bad then as it is now.)

Conclusion.

I've asked some close Atheist friends of mine, if you see a pretty candle light vigil with crosses, church music/chants, how could this be any harm?

The fact is religion is a slope. At the top of this slope we have extremism, and at the bottom we have Agnosticism.

Religion at its heart is about not thinking, its about not critically challenging the world, universe and all that surrounds us.

As an Atheist, I feel its no longer enough to sit idly by, because whether Atheists like it or not there are some KEY reasons why we need to be more vocal:

1. World Conflicts are almost always based on Theism. Atheists can and should speak out against conflicts based on people debating the existance and books of someone we know to be non existant.

2. In our daily lives, we have to see separate school systems be funded to support the indoctrination that religion insists upon. It supports separation of our children, and is harmful to our future.

3. Ultimately going to church, Christmas, funerals, etc.. They seem harmless, but ultimately we are in a war of thought. Those on one side blindly agree to a book (while usually ignoring the silly parts,) while others choose a rational and skeptical approach. Science isn't perfect, but it encourages thought, debate, and reasoning. Religion opposes all of this.

If you quietly go through life not challenging these things as an Atheist, then you are only helping religion continue its strangle hold on curiosity, the scientific method, and the future of our species.

I was never interested in activism, but when our daily lives are threatened by the religious world I think its our duty to at least respond to the threat.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Thor

You win. I have selected your comment to respond to firstly, but before I do I have to say how impressed I am at the responses and various opinions of fellow Atheists (even though many of you mispell it!)

Actually I lose. You quoting a post of mine to support your radical views is something I don't approve of. My error for posting in this thread.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by Dion

The vast majority of people don't have this hang up that you and some others have about being married in a church. For most, it's a one day thing and it's over. They get a wedding, they may not have been able to afford, and the family peace is intact.

Total bullcrap. Any family worth staying in would respect the wishes of the couple who are marrying. My wedding was not in a church. The word "God" was not mentioned in my ceremony. My parents and my wife's parents both were there and were happy as all can be. Both sets of parents were married in church. They had no issue with us not doing that.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Very interesting thread to read through. I find it somewhat interesting that most of the atheists claim to not try and spread their atheism. As an agnostic (I believe in something, but make no definate claims to a specific religon), I find that many of the atheists are just as pushy as the followers of organized religon. I have a feeling that not everyone in being totally honest.

You are not really an agnostic. An agnostic says we cannot know if there are gods. You definitely seem to believe there is some kind of god.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by troutman

You are not really an agnostic. An agnostic says we cannot know if there are gods. You definitely seem to believe there is some kind of god.

I would say that I have some religous and spiritual inclination, but I would say that it's a mistake to necessarily equate that as believing in a "god". A mistake that many followers of western religon and atheists make.

Religon does not always mean a belief in a god.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Thor

The fact is religion is a slope. At the top of this slope we have extremism, and at the bottom we have Agnosticism.

Religion is not a slope down to agnosticism. Agnosticism is non-religious. A better representation might be a sort of U-shaped graph moving from religious extremism on one side down to agnosticism in the middle, and up to atheistic extremism on the other. Atheism and theism are alike in that they are both faith-based positions, agnosticism is not.

Religion at its heart is about not thinking, its about not critically challenging the world, universe and all that surrounds us.

I would say religion is more about faith and values. How can you say religion is about not critically challenging things when many of the people responsible for scientific progress are religious people?

1. World Conflicts are almost always based on Theism. Atheists can and should speak out against conflicts based on people debating the existance and books of someone we know to be non existant.

That seems terribly naive to me. World conflicts aren't 'almost always based on Theism' but they are almost always based on resources and dominance.

2. In our daily lives, we have to see separate school systems be funded to support the indoctrination that religion insists upon. It supports separation of our children, and is harmful to our future.

Where is this harmful to your future. As I've argued in other threads, greater diversity in programs of education is beneficial to learning. This seems like a terribly prejudiced position.

3. Ultimately going to church, Christmas, funerals, etc.. They seem harmless, but ultimately we are in a war of thought. Those on one side blindly agree to a book (while usually ignoring the silly parts,) while others choose a rational and skeptical approach. Science isn't perfect, but it encourages thought, debate, and reasoning. Religion opposes all of this.

Me thinks you should step on back from some of your stereotypes and reevaluate what people on both sides of that 'war' are really like.

If you quietly go through life not challenging these things as an Atheist, then you are only helping religion continue its strangle hold on curiosity, the scientific method, and the future of our species.

I was never interested in activism, but when our daily lives are threatened by the religious world I think its our duty to at least respond to the threat.

The irony of your post is shockingly obvious.

You, sir, are a zealot.

[transplant99]

I am starting to get more involved, to be honest I was like most Atheists where I felt a movement was much like religion and therefore it was something wrong for our belief system. I see know that promoting truth, critical thinking, reasoning, healthy skepticism/debate, etc.. is not a bad thing!

Exactly what is this truth you speak of?

Have you (as predicated by your stance) got some sort of scientific backing that there is no god?

Or do you hold yourself to a lower standard than those that choose to believe in a supreme being?

The hypocrisy is brilliant.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

You, sir, are a zealot.

Aye, that he is. The difference between an Atheist zealot and a theistic zealot, though, is that the theist will kill you whereas the Atheist will just act like a smug jerk all his life.