Teen stabs her newborn over 100 times, throws her in garbage...

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

I think I should preface this by saying I'm not saying it's right...just playing Devil's advocate a bit.


If a sane person would not do that, and you consider her insane, killing her could well be a solution. If you kill the insane and no sane person would do what she did, then this wouldn't happen again, would it? She can't do the same thing to another baby if she's dead.

Again, I'm not saying she should be killed, just that it can solve some things.

It could, but what would we learn from that? That if you poke out enough eyes the whole world goes blind? Perhaps tax dollars would be better spent working with her to try and figure out what happened to lead up to the incident so that others do not go down the same path. She's not the first mother to go psycho and kill her newborn, she likely won't be the last. What were the contributing factors to her actions so that we (as a society) can monitor others who may be at high risk to do the same?

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I tried to provide an explaination other than calling her a whore who was just trying to get rid of her baby. I didn't say I was trying to make it understandable, I was saying we should refrain from name calling when we clearly don't have all the facts in this case. You CAN explain things without understanding them.

actually, that doesn't work so well.

1 a : to make known <explain the secret of your success> b : to make plain or understandable <footnotes that explain the terms>
2 : to give the reason for or cause of <unable to explain his strange conduct>
3 : to show the logical development or relationships of <explained the new theory>
intransitive verb : to make something plain or understandable <a report that suggests rather than explains>

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/explain


1. You cannot make known, plain, or understandable what you don't know or understand.

2. You cannot give the reason for or cause of what you do not know the reason for or cause of.

3. You cannot show the logical development or relationships of what you do not know the logical development or relationships of.


What you CAN do, and tried to do, was speculate on possibilities. What you did is look for possible explanations. What you did not do is explain anything without understanding it.


I'd normally skip right past something like that, but you were being awfully rude with the whole "comprehension" thing.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by FireFly

It could, but what would we learn from that? That if you poke out enough eyes the whole world goes blind? Perhaps tax dollars would be better spent working with her to try and figure out what happened to lead up to the incident so that others do not go down the same path. She's not the first mother to go psycho and kill her newborn, she likely won't be the last. What were the contributing factors to her actions so that we (as a society) can monitor others who may be at high risk to do the same?

That's all I was looking for. That admission. I agree with the rest of the points you made in this post.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

I'd normally skip right past something like that, but you were being awfully rude with the whole "comprehension" thing.

Generally when I receive rudeness, I give it back. Pardon me, though. I should have said "try". Obviously I cannot explain something that I myself, do not understand.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

That's all I was looking for. That admission. I agree with the rest of the points you made in this post.

The admission that it could solve some things? For some people? I never said it couldn't. But what exactly are you trying to solve by killing her? Ensuring she doesn't do it again? Can't you do that in other ways as well?

Generally the punishment of a criminal is to give closure to the family of the victim. In this case, the family of the victim is the criminal. (I would also argue that the mother and grandmother in this case, not knowing about the baby, probably would not go through the same grieving process as other families in other cases. How do you mourn someone you didn't know existed?) So killing the girl doesn't give closure to the family.

What are you trying to accomplish by killing her, that cannot be done by other means, and possibly better by other means?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Azure

She is a whore, and a bitch, and she couldn't keep her legs shut.

Just put her in jail and throw away the key.

I saw one of my nephews as a newborn right after he was born last week, and man...just sick. I can't even imagine...

Another Gem.

[Burninator]

In regards to the people who are saying that we should torture her and what she did was above any other crime and things of that nature, you are out of your mind. Torture? What it is this, the dark ages? This is a completely unreasonable line of thinking. I cannot express in words how horrible this crime is. There is no way someone in a sane state of mind could do this IMO. Whether she is in an unstable state of mind all the time, or just this one time. She clearly has something wrong with her. People that are mentally ill cannot be treated the same as sane people. She shouldn't get off with just a slap on the wrist, but instead be locked up in an asylum where she can get help for a long, long time. Torture and death is ridiculous.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Burninator

In regards to the people who are saying that we should torture her and what she did was above any other crime and things of that nature, you are out of your mind. Torture? What it is this, the dark ages? This is a completely unreasonable line of thinking. I cannot express in words how horrible this crime is. There is no way someone in a sane state of mind could do this IMO. Whether she is in an unstable state of mind all the time, or just this one time. She clearly has something wrong with her. People that are mentally ill cannot be treated the same as sane people. She shouldn't get off with just a slap on the wrist, but instead be locked up in an asylum where she can get help for a long, long time. Torture and death is ridiculous.

Good post . . . No teenager who gives birth in a laundry room at 3AM in their parents house can be in a proper state of mind.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Good post . . . No teenager who gives birth in a laundry room at 3AM in their parents house can be in a proper state of mind.

Well of course there is something wrong with her.

But she stabbed her baby for over a min. A freakin' minute.

And then throws it into the garbage. Surely it should have registered on her what she was doing.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well of course there is something wrong with her.

But she stabbed her baby for over a min. A freakin' minute.

And then throws it into the garbage. Surely it should have registered on her what she was doing.

Huh? If she was insane (and I think this would be the case in such a despicable crime), she probably didn't know what she was doing. That's the whole argument for pleading insanity.

And truth be told, none of us can really comment on what being insane is like, since we are all obviously sane.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well of course there is something wrong with her.

But she stabbed her baby for over a min. A freakin' minute.

And then throws it into the garbage. Surely it should have registered on her what she was doing.

Have you never heard of people who 'black out' during rage or fear or whatever extreme emotion may have been going through her head at the time?

[Sylvanfan]

Okay, this is obviously a horrendous thing and stirs up some pretty stong emotions. But we have language violations going on right left and centre here. I really don't feel like handing out 50 infractions on a topic like this which is obviously a very sensitive subject. I simply ask that you try to keep this discussion clean going forward. If it can't stay on track or this keeps up, we'll close this thread for everyone's benefit.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Have you never heard of people who 'black out' during rage or fear or whatever extreme emotion may have been going through her head at the time?

And she blacks out, but still stabs her baby over 100 times? Something that would take 1-2 min, perhaps more.

Then goes outside and throws it into the garbage?

I'm willing to accept that she is mentally unstable, but seriously.

Ugh!

[CaptainCrunch]

Its really starting to frost my tips that every single trial goes to an insanity defense.

That scumbag who ran over the girl here in Calgary and then said that he didn't recall hitting her because he was so stressed out about his divorce.

This girl stabbing a baby over a hundred times and already there's talk that she's insane or she suffered a rage or fear induced blackout.

I'm sorry, I don't really fully believe in it. At her core she knew what she was doing, a 100 jabs of a knife tells me that.

Its irrelevant if she's insane or not, the question that has to be answered is does she know right from wrong. In my mind if she doesn't she shouldn't be around other people, and if she does, then she committed a major crime and shouldn't be around other people.

I guess thats why I'll never be a judge, because I don't believe in the blackout theory, or a crime of fear or passion or anger being an excuse for taking a life.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its really starting to frost my tips that every single trial goes to an insanity defense.

That scumbag who ran over the girl here in Calgary and then said that he didn't recall hitting her because he was so stressed out about his divorce.

This girl stabbing a baby over a hundred times and already there's talk that she's insane or she suffered a rage or fear induced blackout.

I'm sorry, I don't really fully believe in it. At her core she knew what she was doing, a 100 jabs of a knife tells me that.

Its irrelevant if she's insane or not, the question that has to be answered is does she know right from wrong. In my mind if she doesn't she shouldn't be around other people, and if she does, then she committed a major crime and shouldn't be around other people.

I guess thats why I'll never be a judge, because I don't believe in the blackout theory, or a crime of fear or passion or anger being an excuse for taking a life.

Being sane or insane, I would think would be directly related to your ability to distinguish what is right and what is wrong.

I've thought about that too. A judge is in the same boat as you. He is not an expert or a physiologist. That's is precisely why expert witnesses are brought in to testify. I don't have anything to back this up with, but I think the insanity defense is used far more than it is accepted. For the most part it always seems like it is the last card to be played by lawyer when everything else has failed. I would be curious to know, how many cases of pleading insanity are successful.

What happen with that guy in Calgary who hit that girl? Did his "excuse" work? I recall him making that claim, but in relation to the whole story it doesn't even make a lick of sense. Didn't he go pick up pizza after he hit her?

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by FireFly

The admission that it could solve some things? For some people? I never said it couldn't. But what exactly are you trying to solve by killing her? Ensuring she doesn't do it again? Can't you do that in other ways as well?

Generally the punishment of a criminal is to give closure to the family of the victim. In this case, the family of the victim is the criminal. (I would also argue that the mother and grandmother in this case, not knowing about the baby, probably would not go through the same grieving process as other families in other cases. How do you mourn someone you didn't know existed?) So killing the girl doesn't give closure to the family.

What are you trying to accomplish by killing her, that cannot be done by other means, and possibly better by other means?

Um...actually, you did:

Originally Posted by Firefly

See if my mind changes about what? I can't believe it either. Which is exactly the reason I'm saying that there's something more to the story. What would cause it? Does it make what she's done any less? No. Do you really think she did it just to get rid of the child? Please. A sane person would not do that. That's all I'm saying. Killing or torturing her doesn't solve anything.

As for the italicized bit, how about satisfying these people (those who are calling for her death)'s thirst for blood? Or overpopulation?


I do NOT agree that "Generally the punishment of a criminal is to give closure to the family of the victim". You're very big on sweeping generalizations. Me, I think that protecting the surviving populace, rehabilitating the criminals, and satisfying people's quest for "justice" (family or not) are more important. Otherwise, we might as well just execute everyone who is found guilty, so that none of these familys feel that the punishment wasn't severe enough. Your qualifier, generally, gives a little leeway, but I really don't think "closure to the family of the victim" is the main reason for the criminal's punishment the majority of the time. The judge and jury are chosen from outside of the family for a reason.

[Frank the Tank]

Well, to tread right in the middle of this debate....what kind of upbringing did this girl have that she thought this was her only option? I mean, at a time in her life when you would think most girls would need their parents love and support and understanding the most, she was so terrified that she couldn't even tell them? I can't imagine having no one to turn to at my darkest hour....

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Burninator

What happen with that guy in Calgary who hit that girl? Did his "excuse" work? I recall him making that claim, but in relation to the whole story it doesn't even make a lick of sense. Didn't he go pick up pizza after he hit her?

The judge ignored the expert witnesses said the guy was full of crap and he was found guilty.

A guy without an awareness certainly dosen't sign his assets over to a best friend and then get on a plane to England

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

Um...actually, you did:



As for the italicized bit, how about satisfying these people (those who are calling for her death)'s thirst for blood? Or overpopulation?


I do NOT agree that "Generally the punishment of a criminal is to give closure to the family of the victim". You're very big on sweeping generalizations. Me, I think that protecting the surviving populace, rehabilitating the criminals, and satisfying people's quest for "justice" (family or not) are more important. Otherwise, we might as well just execute everyone who is found guilty, so that none of these familys feel that the punishment wasn't severe enough. Your qualifier, generally, gives a little leeway, but I really don't think "closure to the family of the victim" is the main reason for the criminal's punishment the majority of the time. The judge and jury are chosen from outside of the family for a reason.

I see I'm going to have to choose my words very carefully for fear of being taken too literally. Let's try this again.

Killing or torturing her won't solve the root issues. It will solve immediate issues, and nothing more. It's like putting a wad of gum in a leaky roof. Not going to fix anything in the long term.

In such personal crimes, the entire trial, guilty verdict and resulting punishment give closure to the family. How many times have you heard families say that they can "move on, now that it's all over"? It's not about taking an eye for an eye. A guilty verdict doesn't have to mean death for it to give a family closure.

In this case, how do you think her mother would feel if the system decided to take her daughter's life? Now she's not only lost a grandchild she didn't know about, she's also lost her daughter. (One could argue that the daughter is already lost, but at least mom can visit her.)

Is the surviving populace actually threatened by her? Is the "quest" for "justice" really ours to worry about? She'll already be serving a life sentence dealing with what she's done. Is it a "quest" for justice, or is it bloodlust? What is justice? What would be justice in this case, and for whom? If punishment was really for rehab, why are there so many multiple offenders?

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Killing or torturing her won't solve the root issues. It will solve immediate issues, and nothing more. It's like putting a wad of gum in a leaky roof. Not going to fix anything in the long term.

In such personal crimes, the entire trial, guilty verdict and resulting punishment give closure to the family. How many times have you heard families say that they can "move on, now that it's all over"? It's not about taking an eye for an eye. A guilty verdict doesn't have to mean death for it to give a family closure.

Excellent post. I think all the comments on here are a reaction to the horror of the incident. For some one to do something as horrible to their own newborn is a pretty good sign that the elevator doesnt go all the way to the top - at least at the moment of the incident.

The truth of the matter is that insane defenses are rare and are successful in a tiny amount of cases - most of the time it just reduces the sentence or charge from first degree to second degree. She's going to prison - just like that woman in Ohio that microwaved her baby.