Terrorist to hit around election!!!

[arsenal]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Oct 24 2004, 02:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Oct 24 2004, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-arsenal@Oct 24 2004, 08:32 PM
Whats wrong with that statement?
That is pretty much the first thing I thought at the time. I remember, i was on my way to class, listening to the Team 960, and they mentioned on the radio "We have just been informed that an airplane has flown into the WTC", or something along those lines. My first gut reaction was thinking it was a Sensa or something, and thought "How could you not see the WTC and avoid it".
First time is a possible accident. Second time is deliberate.

Are you serious? That would be like seeing a bus full of people get into a severe accident and thinking; "Gee, what a horrible driver!". Sounds very cold and just plain simple.


The first thing I thought was; " Wow, those poor people. Something must have gone very wrong."

The next thing I thought was; "I hope this was a terrorist attack". [/b][/quote]
Given the information I had at the time, what am I supposed to think? At that time, I didn't know it was 767 passenger jet. What I heard on the radio was "A plane has flown into the WTC". Like I said, I thought it was a small 1 or 2 seater. This is very plausible, given an inexperianced pilot, and bad weather. I didn't know at the time, that the weather was clear. Once I learned that it was a passenger airline, then I thought, OMG what is going on.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Oct 24 2004, 08:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Oct 24 2004, 08:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

No Dis, that would incorrect. Richard Clarke was waiting in the command center for the President to come out of the classroom to pass along orders. In fact, Cheney was not available either so there was a lag when neither of the executive officers were available to make a call. But thanks for playing and trying to make excuses for Bush.

Cut the crap Lanny....I'm not trying to make excuses.

Can you provide me with a link to that information? Or are you just going to be a jerk? [/b][/quote]
Sorry Dis, just playing. Check out T5's link. I'll see if I can find anything from Clarke's book on the web, but I'm not sure it exists yet in hypertext form. He layed out events pretty well and was very fair in his assessment of what was going on. Good book btw, I recommend it.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by arsenal@Oct 24 2004, 08:55 PM
Given the information I had at the time, what am I supposed to think? At that time, I didn't know it was 767 passenger jet. What I heard on the radio was "A plane has flown into the WTC". Like I said, I thought it was a small 1 or 2 seater. This is very plausible, given an inexperianced pilot, and bad weather. I didn't know at the time, that the weather was clear. Once I learned that it was a passenger airline, then I thought, OMG what is going on.

Come on Arsenal, I think the President of the country likely got a little more information than we did in the initial report. I would think that before the information was passed through to the President that they would make sure they had all the information possible on the event. I doubt he got it from the radio or CNN like everyone else.

[Displaced Flames fan]

You can't play like that with me anymore on this subject.

I'm tired of being painted as some right-wing Bush loving nutbar. You know that's not the case, but I get hammered with that persona by others as a result of what goes on between you (and others) and I on these subjects.

It wears on me.

[arsenal]

Lanny.. that response was for FlamesAddiction. Just so he doesn't think I am some sort of cold heartless monster.

But yah, I agree. Bush probably had a hell of alot more information than we did.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 24 2004, 09:00 PM
You can't play like that with me anymore on this subject.

I'm tired of being painted as some right-wing Bush loving nutbar. You know that's not the case, but I get hammered with that persona by others as a result of what goes on between you (and others) and I on these subjects.

It wears on me.

Sorry Dis, I won't play with you on this one anymore. Now you know how I feel with Tranny and Cow on the whole media thing. Its gets on your nerves after a while so I can respect what you're saying. I won't jerk your chain any more... on this subject.

:P

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Oct 24 2004, 09:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Oct 24 2004, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Displaced Flames fan@Oct 24 2004, 09:00 PM
You can't play like that with me anymore on this subject.

I'm tired of being painted as some right-wing Bush loving nutbar. You know that's not the case, but I get hammered with that persona by others as a result of what goes on between you (and others) and I on these subjects.

It wears on me.

Sorry Dis, I won't play with you on this one anymore. Now you know how I feel with Tranny and Cow on the whole media thing. Its gets on your nerves after a while so I can respect what you're saying. I won't jerk your chain any more... on this subject.

:P [/b][/quote]
Don't mean to sound like a whiner...but I can't wait until this election is over. I am SICK of all the crap being spewed by both sides. Literally. :doo:

[Lanny_MacDonald]

I hear you Dis. I just want it to be over too, so we can focus on something that matters, like no hockey.

[Flame On]

I don't think he reacted well; he didn't react that's the point, but at the same time, there was no precident. Who would surmise from a plane crashing into a building prior to 9/11 that a shoot to kill policy would be needed by the pres. That would take genious, and that Bush ain't.
I was trying to get at your points Lanny and DIS last night. That it does get draining to constantly wage our war of words against eachother. That's why I said my intention is not the wind up, but we're all guilty at times of getting digs in I'm sure. Can't wait for the election to end, and hockey to start.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 24 2004, 08:52 PM
The timeline of the events of the day are pretty straight forward. The FAA and NORAD both knew that the planes in question were hijacked a full half hour before the first plane hit the WTC. The FAA and NORAD share radar systems and have redundant systems in place for tracking of everything in the air. NORAD knows of any single object in the air over the Norath American continent at any time. Its their job to know that. They also have protocols to follow in the event of a hijacking and if an airliner is theatened. They have been tested and simulated over and over t limit response time. This was not something new. Heck, they had scrambled on Payne Stewart's jet 8 months earlier and have multiple escorts daily. This was not something new. The only thing that was a kink was the threat of the aircraft and the potential for taking them out with missles. The only one that can give the order to take out a civilian aircraft over US airspace is the President of the United States, and he was in a very important photo-opportunity with some high level seven year olds and could not be disturbed. The chain was broken, right at the top because some seven year olds could not be interrupted when the country was under attack.

I don't really need to disturb my wa with this but . . . .weren't you telling us four months ago Bush knew of four hijackings and two tower hits BEFORE he entered the classroom?

In fact, the 9/11 Commission report pretty much disagrees with just about everything you said in the paragraph above doesn't it? Yes or no?

Then again, four months or so ago you were also telling us the 9/11 Commission Report is a government coverup of the "real story."

I don't think he reacted well; he didn't react that's the point, but at the same time, there was no precident. Who would surmise from a plane crashing into a building prior to 9/11 that a shoot to kill policy would be needed by the pres. That would take genious, and that Bush ain't.

If it were me, I would have stood up and stormed out like John Wayne looking for Debbie in "The Searchers." But that's easy for me to say two years later on a sunny afternoon after walking the dogs.

Kind of ironic he can be accused simultaneously of being indecisive and of being a hot-headed cowboy quick to war.

Really, he's an ordinary man in an extraordinary job. I wouldn't have stayed in that classroom when I was told of the second plane. But that's just me.

Lastly, I agree we need to get this damned election over with.

Cowperson

[arsenal]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Oct 24 2004, 04:11 PM
Kind of ironic he can be accused simultaneously of being indecisive and of being a hot-headed cowboy quick to war.

Thats what I was thinking. All over him for not acting fast enough, with 9/11. Then all over him for acting to quickly over Iraq. If he is elected for 4 more years, the ecomony could turn around, the US will prosper, and everything will be hunky dorry, but he didn't "fix the damn environement".

oh well, not matter what he does, there will be millions of people ready to jump on him for not doing what they percieve as the right thing.

/me goes to sleep till Nov 3

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by arsenal+Oct 24 2004, 04:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (arsenal @ Oct 24 2004, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Oct 24 2004, 04:11 PM
Kind of ironic he can be accused simultaneously of being indecisive and of being a hot-headed cowboy quick to war.

Thats what I was thinking. All over him for not acting fast enough, with 9/11. Then all over him for acting to quickly over Iraq. If he is elected for 4 more years, the ecomony could turn around, the US will prosper, and everything will be hunky dorry, but he didn't "fix the damn environement".

oh well, not matter what he does, there will be millions of people ready to jump on him for not doing what they percieve as the right thing.

/me goes to sleep till Nov 3 [/b][/quote]
I for one am all over him for acting too fast on Iraq because, you know, he did. In the whole context of Saddam being a threat to the US and the "we have to invade now now now before it's too late" mantra, George was wrong, and he acted too fast.

The two things (sitting on ass for 7 minutes, Iraq war) are quite unrelated, but in the interests of unfairness, I'll say this: He waited too long to react on 9/11, and he didn't wait long enough regarding Iraq. There is a spot between "not acting fast enough" and "acting too fast". It's called "the right time to act". He missed it both times.

In other news, I'm quite enjoying all this, and I'm surprised everyone is so sick of it.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Oct 24 2004, 10:11 PM
I don't really need to disturb my wa with this but . . . .weren't you telling us four months ago Bush knew of four hijackings and two tower hits BEFORE he entered the classroom?

In fact, the 9/11 Commission report pretty much disagrees with just about everything you said in the paragraph above doesn't it? Yes or no?

Then again, four months or so ago you were also telling us the 9/11 Commission Report is a government coverup of the "real story."

From information I have read Cow, Bush was likely well aware of the hijackings, as well as a potential fifth that never materialized into anythng but a transponder failure, and knew of the first plane hitting the tower. If he knew about the second it was likely told to him upon arrival. I would have to check the timeline again as it was very close. I think he was informed of the second stike while he was in the classroom.

Cow, we've been around the block on the 9/11 report. You like to think it is gospel and I like to point out that it is full of holes as presented by independent researchers and content experts. Lets just leave it at that or we'll have to re-hash the whole thing all over again.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Oct 24 2004, 10:33 PM


In other news, I'm quite enjoying all this, and I'm surprised everyone is so sick of it.

You, my friend, are a sick human being. Especially when you add this comment to what you and I had our private discussion about a few days ago.......you like to torture yourself don't you? :P

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Oct 24 2004, 04:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Oct 24 2004, 04:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RougeUnderoos@Oct 24 2004, 10:33 PM


In other news, I'm quite enjoying all this, and I'm surprised everyone is so sick of it.

You, my friend, are a sick human being. Especially when you add this comment to what you and I had our private discussion about a few days ago.......you like to torture yourself don't you? :P [/b][/quote]
LOL, yeah I guess I do like the torture. As you can see, I haven't even given up the other one yet either.

As for the "sick" thing, definitely. It's a really nice day here and I"ve been out of the house once all day, the rest of my time has been reading and posting on this damn forum

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Oct 24 2004, 11:05 PM

LOL, yeah I guess I do like the torture. As you can see, I haven't even given up the other one yet either.

As for the "sick" thing, definitely. It's a really nice day here and I"ve been out of the house once all day, the rest of my time has been reading and posting on this damn forum

Good lord, you too?

My time has been spent doing laundry and posting on this forum. I haven't even watched any football.....and it's my ONLY day off from work to boot.

What the hell is the matter with me? O_o

[Table 5]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 24 2004, 05:59 PM
Especially when you add this comment to what you and I had our private discussion about a few days ago.......you like to torture yourself don't you? :P

you guys arent the ones sleeping with cats are you?

[sjwalter]

You may disagree with everything i ever say and you may hate me as well, but lets get this damn election over. And get hockey back.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Oct 24 2004, 10:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Oct 24 2004, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Oct 24 2004, 10:11 PM
I don't really need to disturb my wa with this but . . . .weren't you telling us four months ago Bush knew of four hijackings and two tower hits BEFORE he entered the classroom?

In fact, the 9/11 Commission report pretty much disagrees with just about everything you said in the paragraph above doesn't it? Yes or no?

Then again, four months or so ago you were also telling us the 9/11 Commission Report is a government coverup of the "real story."

From information I have read Cow, If he knew about the second it was likely told to him upon arrival. I would have to check the timeline again as it was very close. I think he was informed of the second stike while he was in the classroom.

Cow, we've been around the block on the 9/11 report. You like to think it is gospel and I like to point out that it is full of holes as presented by independent researchers and content experts. Lets just leave it at that or we'll have to re-hash the whole thing all over again. [/b][/quote]
it is full of holes as presented by independent researchers and content experts

Isn't it true your "independent researchers and content experts" in fact presented their findings in books published BEFORE the 9/11 Commission released its conclusions?

And, supplementary to that, isn't it true the "independent researchers and content experts" cited by yourself didn't have access to the testimony, records or materials as analyzed by the 9/11 Commission? Including actual transcripts of conversations between various levels of the FAA, NORAD, the Secret Service and the White House as they were occurring, timestamped and dated?

In that light, wouldn't you agree that it is quite possible the opinions and conclusions of your "independent researchers and content experts" are based on insufficient facts?

Isn't it true, as well, that you regard the 9/11 Commission report as a government controlled conspiracy, which, amazingly, the Bush administration opposed and was reluctant to offer testimony at given the hostile Democrats running the show?

Bush was likely well aware of the hijackings, as well as a potential fifth that never materialized into anythng but a transponder failure, and knew of the first plane hitting the tower.

The actual timeline:

"When American 11 struck the World Trade Center at 8:46, no one at the White House or travelling with the President knew that it had been hijacked" - 9/11 Report conclusion.

Bush was aware the first plane had hit the WTC, told first it was a small commuter aircraft then minutes later, at 8:55 in a conversation with Condoleeza Rice, that it was a twin engine commercial airliner.

At 8:52, "New York air traffic controllers began repeatedly and unsuccessfully trying to contact" the plane that would hit the second tower.

"At about 8:55, the controller in charge notified a New York Center manager that she believed United 175 (the second plane) had also been hijacked. The manager tried to notify the regional managers and was told that they were discussing a hijacked aircraft (presumeably American 11) and refused to be disturbed." Between 9:01 and 9:02, a manager from New York Center told the Command Center in Herndon "We have several situations going on here. it's escalating big, big time. We need to get the military involved with us. . . . We're, we're involved with something else, we have other aircraft that may have a similar situation going on here." From the 9/11 Report concludes: "Evidence indicates that this conversation was the only notice received by either FAA headquarters or the Herndon Command Center prior to the second crash that there had been a second hijacking."

At 9:03, the second aircraft crashed into WTC II.

At 9:05, the 9/11 Report indicates "Boston Center confirmed for both the FAA Command Center and the New England Region that the hijackers aboard American 11 said "we have planes." - 9/11 Report.

The 9/11 Report concludes: "The first indication that the NORAD aird defenders had of the second hijacked aircraft, United 175, came in a phone call from New York Center to NEADS at 9:03. The notice came at about the time the plane was hitting the South Tower."

"The president was seated in a classroom when, at 9:05, Andrew Card whispered to him, "A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack." - 9/11 Report.

At 8:54, the plane that would eventually hit the Pentagon "deviated from its assigned course. Two minutes later "it disappeared completely from radar at Indianapolis Center, which was controlling the flight. Shortly after 9:00, Indianapolis Center started notifying other agencies that American 77 was missing and had possibly crashed. At 9:08, Indianapolis Center asked Air Force Search and Rescue at Langley Air Force Base to look for a downed aircraft. The center also contacted the West Virginia State Police and asked whether any reports of a downed aircraft had been received. At 9:09, it reported the loss of contact to the FAA regional center, which passed this information to FAA headquarters at 9:24. By 9:20, Indianapolis Center learned that there were other hijacked aircraft and began to doubt its assumption that American 77 had crashed."

"At 9:33, the tower supervisor at Reagan National Airport picked up a hotline to the Secret Service and told the Service's operations center that: "an aircraft is coming at you and not talking with us." "This was the first specific report to the Secret Service of a direct threat to the White House." - 9/11 Report

Between 9:35 and 9:45, while in a motorcade to the airport in Sarasota, "the president learned about the attack on the Pentagon." - 9/11 Report Pg. 39.

The 9/11 report concludes the FAA command center only learned of the hijacking of Flight 93, the one that was destined for the White House, at 10:03 and that records also estimate that NORAD had no information of the hijacking of flight 93 until 10:07.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf

That's the indisputable timeline based on testimony of radar logs, phone logs, recorded conversations, etc and really matches nothing you've said in this thread.

Cowperson

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by sjwalter@Oct 24 2004, 06:30 PM
You may disagree with everything i ever say and you may hate me as well, but lets get this damn election over. And get hockey back.

Easy there tiger.

DFF and I have political differences, and our debates have spanned two millenia. There doesn't have to be hate, and there isn't. Some of the very longest standing members of this board are also the most active in the OT forum. If we hated each other, or you, we wouldn't bother coming back I'm sure.