"Toronto Terror Plot Foiled" CNN News

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

Which brings me back to my original question before this topic got derailed into yet another political battle between left and right...

Why are Canadian-born citizens -- who have lived here for the majority of their lives -- setting out and planning these well-thought out plans to attack their own country?

Do they feel closer to their bloodlines than the country they're from? If so, why?

Would this happen to other Canadians? Would Chinese-Canadians, or European-Canadians, or any other form, act in the same manner if the West and their respective country were involved in a conflict?

IMO, religion is what makes it happen. Islam is a way of life, greater than any societal standard that we as North Americans can provide. As long as Islam still teaches their people that the west has humiliated the followers of the religion, and the west deserves to be punished, these things will continue to happen. Education must begin in the mosque, not in the school. Over zealous religious leaders need to be moderated and brought back to the center on religious values. That goes for both Islamic, Jewish and Christian religious leaders. There are "nut jobs" in every religion and they are poisoning the minds of their followers each day. Its not just an Islamic problem, it transcends theological borders. The vast majority of terrorist actions that have taken place in America have been directed by the radical Christian right. All religions can taint the minds of people if the message is twisted into one of hatred.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Azure

Exactly.

For some damn reason, everyone wants to blame the West. Nothing we can do will save this nutjobs from trying to kill innocent civilians with terrorist attacks.

Who blames the West? I've never see anyone on these boards blame the West for anything.

I've seen people blame foreign policies of certain countries in the past and present... but I've never see anyone blame western culture or way-of -life.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Who blames the West? I've never see anyone on these boards blame the West for anything.

I've seen people blame foreign policies of certain countries in the past and present... but I've never see anyone blame western culture or way-of -life.

You should have read the post above you.

and the west deserves to be punished

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

The vast majority of terrorist actions that have taken place in America have been directed by the radical Christian right. All religions can taint the minds of people if the message is twisted into one of hatred.

I was with you up until here Lanny, and this is where you and I depart. I would say that most of the attacks in the U.S. that are considered to be terrorist attacks have been perpetrated by radical Islam. The attacks on the World Trade Center, the previous attacks on the World trade Center, the attack on the Cole have to be considered attacks by sophisticated elements of extreme Islam.

The Weathermen were radical maoists and not motivated by religion.

The Egyptian letter bomb campaign in 1997 originated in Egypt by extremists there.

The anthrax letter threats that were seen after the 2nd world trade center attacks were probably a wack job trying to induce fear, but there's no proof of religious overtones.

The Tim Mcveigh bombing wasn't a religious terrorist act, but the act of a angry young man with anti government leanings. In fact outside of the crimes of groups like the KKK, there's not a lot to support your argument about radical christians being violent terrorists. They may be misguided and somewhat stupid in some of thier views, but they express it more through signs and protests which is protected under the constitutions.

The interesting fact is if you go through this list.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm

The world wide terrorist actions committed by extreme elements of Islam far outweigh any acts of extreme christians in the later half of the century.

Reading this list makes you realize that we live in a pretty crappy world right now.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Azure

You should have read the post above you.

Wow Azure, you should really take a course in reading comprehension or if you are just trying to raise crap, that's nasty.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I was with you up until here Lanny, and this is where you and I depart. I would say that most of the attacks in the U.S. that are considered to be terrorist attacks have been perpetrated by radical Islam. The attacks on the World Trade Center, the previous attacks on the World trade Center, the attack on the Cole have to be considered attacks by sophisticated elements of extreme Islam.

The Weathermen were radical maoists and not motivated by religion.

The Egyptian letter bomb campaign in 1997 originated in Egypt by extremists there.

The anthrax letter threats that were seen after the 2nd world trade center attacks were probably a wack job trying to induce fear, but there's no proof of religious overtones.

The Tim Mcveigh bombing wasn't a religious terrorist act, but the act of a angry young man with anti government leanings. In fact outside of the crimes of groups like the KKK, there's not a lot to support your argument about radical christians being violent terrorists. They may be misguided and somewhat stupid in some of thier views, but they express it more through signs and protests which is protected under the constitutions.

The interesting fact is if you go through this list.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm

The world wide terrorist actions committed by extreme elements of Islam far outweigh any acts of extreme christians in the later half of the century.

Reading this list makes you realize that we live in a pretty crappy world right now.

I was speaking of terrorist acts on American soil. Interesting list from the government, which surprisingly does not consider any of the anti-abortion bombings/assassinations a terrorist act. I would say that the State Department has a different definition of terrorism than I do (gee, surprise surprise). The anti-abortion movement has committed more acts of terrorism in the United States than any of the groups suggested. But of course they wouldn't include those as it paints the home grown nut jobs in a very bad light by comparison.

And don't marginalize the Oklahoma City bombing as "a disturbed young man". It was very much a religiously motivated action and was in direct response to the massacre of the Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas, if you believe McVeigh's accounts. Interestingly enough, there is evidence to suggest that McVeigh's co-conspirator (oh oh, there's that word, so I guess this act was nothing more than a conspiracy theory), Terry Nichols, went to the source to get instructions on how to build a bomb similar to the one used in the 1993 WTC attack, that source being Ramzi Yousef. The Phillippine police have Nichols and Yousef in Manila on the same day and have witnesses that cooberate their "theory". Seems the religious nut jobs don't mind each other when they share a common cause.

I agree, we live in a pretty crappy world, and religion is a very big part of what makes it a crappy place.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Wow Azure, you should really take a course in reading comprehension or if you are just trying to raise crap, that's nasty.

Now, now, Azure is allowed to his delusional opinion. We can't possibly have the same number of nut jobs as "our enemies", as that would make us no better than them (even if the statistical curve would support that premise). You have to remember, Azure is a big supprter of the military, and the military needs it's enemies. Without a defined enemy the constructs which the military works fails. Without the Islamofascists (I love that word as it really riles up the dittoheads) the military would have no excuse for using those trillions of dollars worth of "so cool" weapons they have at their disposal. Without the Islamofascists the economy would not be chugging along at the clip it is (war is great for the economy of a country who supplies the world the majority of it's weapons). Without these Islamosfascists who would Americans (and the west) have as an enemy? So you can't actually get to the root of the issue and do a straight comparison like that, it just ain't fair. Now excuse me, I have to go watch the Christian Broadcasting Network and see who Pat Robertson wants assassinated today!

[Cheese]

so what happens now? Are we going to see people starting to revolt against the Islamics?

Yep...

Toronto Police urge calm...

The head of Canada's largest urban police force called on Muslims and non-Muslims alike to let cooler heads prevail Sunday after windows were smashed at a Toronto mosque following the arrest of 17 people in what authorities say was a plan to stage a massive terrorist attack.

"We are expecting other (vandals) to come," one man said.

I think we are just on the verge of an all out storm....the peace loving Islamics better get ahold of the radicals within their factions and soon.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by calculoso

They've lived here.

They've experienced our way of life.

How do you propose to sell our way of life to them? How better to know it than to live it?

Well they have lived here, but obviously kept to their own. Do you think if they had Jewish friends, Christian friends, friends that worked for the giovernment etc that they would be as willing to attack the country? I think they must have been very isolated and brain-washed in order to want to carry this out..

Not sure what the answer is, but we need to encourage the Canadian Way of life more than just letting them in here and then they just make little pakistan right here with all the problems that go along with that.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

Which brings me back to my original question before this topic got derailed into yet another political battle between left and right...

Why are Canadian-born citizens -- who have lived here for the majority of their lives -- setting out and planning these well-thought out plans to attack their own country?

Do they feel closer to their bloodlines than the country they're from? If so, why?

Would this happen to other Canadians? Would Chinese-Canadians, or European-Canadians, or any other form, act in the same manner if the West and their respective country were involved in a conflict?

I think the problem is that these new immigrants tend to settle in the same area and there for make a little home away from home. Mix in a few radicals and bada bing you get some home grown terrorists. Where do most immigrants live once they are here in Calgary? NE. I am pretty sure the same thing happens in TO and other large citites.

[duncan]

These guys did not come from secular areas of Toronto, like the heavily Tamil areas in the Jane-Finch Corridor, they lived in ethnically diverse suburbia. Two came from Kingston, and another had recently moved from Cambridge. They weren't secular at all, they were in University and Highschools, and participated in local athletic leagues. They did know Government types, as one was the son of an employee of the Atomic Commission. They weren't poor, or downtrodden, they were educated and middle to upper middle-class.
The two suspect over 25 years of age, were tied to Radical Islam. Jamal, the 43 year old, was an 'Emam', heavily involved in ridding his Mosque of moderates. He had been reported by Mosque members for his radical teachings.

[duncan]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I think the problem is that these new immigrants tend to settle in the same area and there for make a little home away from home. Mix in a few radicals and bada bing you get some home grown terrorists. Where do most immigrants live once they are here in Calgary? NE. I am pretty sure the same thing happens in TO and other large citites.

Yes, most immigrants tend to go to areas with large populations of similar ethnic backgrounds. In the GTA, the Jane-Finch area has large populations of Tamil immigrants, Regent Park has been called Little Jamaica, there is Greektown, little China, etc, but these guys lived in diverse suburbs. The problem in this case lies deeply in the Mosque/Learning centre, where Jamal had gained alot of control, and found young, eager extremists to manipulate.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by duncan

These guys did not come from secular areas of Toronto, like the heavily Tamil areas in the Jane-Finch Corridor, they lived in ethnically diverse suburbia.

Wouldn't that be considered secular still?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by duncan

Yes, most immigrants tend to go to areas with large populations of similar ethnic backgrounds. In the GTA, the Jane-Finch area has large populations of Tamil immigrants, Regent Park has been called Little Jamaica, there is Greektown, little China, etc, but these guys lived in diverse suburbs. The problem in this case lies deeply in the Mosque/Learning centre, where Jamal had gained alot of control, and found young, eager extremists to manipulate.

I agree. These Mosque's are one of the few places in Western Society where these kind of teaching are able to take place, due to freedom of religion. Just another example of how these radicals use Western rights to further their own gain.

[duncan]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Wouldn't that be considered secular still?

Actually, you are right, I had my terms confused. The ehtnically mixed suburb is secular.

[jolinar of malkshor]

I wonder how many of these folks came to Canada as refugee's?

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by duncan

These guys did not come from secular areas of Toronto, like the heavily Tamil areas in the Jane-Finch Corridor, they lived in ethnically diverse suburbia. Two came from Kingston, and another had recently moved from Cambridge. They weren't secular at all, they were in University and Highschools, and participated in local athletic leagues. They did know Government types, as one was the son of an employee of the Atomic Commission. They weren't poor, or downtrodden, they were educated and middle to upper middle-class.
The two suspect over 25 years of age, were tied to Radical Islam. Jamal, the 43 year old, was an 'Emam', heavily involved in ridding his Mosque of moderates. He had been reported by Mosque members for his radical teachings.

Now that is good to hear. If word would get out about how Mosque members are helping identify potential problems then perhaps there wouldn't be kneejerk reprisals. I would think vandalizing Mosques would tend to isolate them more, and foster more ill will.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I agree. These Mosque's are one of the few places in Western Society where these kind of teaching are able to take place, due to freedom of religion. Just another example of how these radicals use Western rights to further their own gain.

And what do you suggest the prevention of this? Is your suggestion applied to Christians as well? How about Jews? Or is this just an Islamic religion problem?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Wow Azure, you should really take a course in reading comprehension or if you are just trying to raise crap, that's nasty.

So Lanny isn't saying the West "deserves" to be bombed? Therefore he is not blaming the West for doing something that angers these people?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

So Lanny isn't saying the West "deserves" to be bombed? Therefore he is not blaming the West for doing something that angers these people?

You took that line completely out of context. Here, I'll demonstrate...

Originally Posted by Azure

the West deserves to be bombed

What? That's terrible! How could you say such a thing?