Fixing Forever A Flame

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

So when do we retire #68 for Jagr? He was pretty good wasn’t he? He’s got a couple cups, is the 2nd leading scorer all time, is still playing professional hockey in his 50s like Gordie Howe, what more does it take to have Jagr’s jersey retired?!?

Follow what I was replying to.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

lol

I meant MacInnis and you all knew it!

[TheScorpion]

No problems whatsoever with the numbers already retired, and I believe the Flames have had discussions about simply converting 2 and 25 into retired numbers as they move into Scotia Place. I also think 13 should officially join that category at some point – there's no chance anyone ever wears it again here either way. Not even gonna get into the whole 14 thing, although it would be really funny if they commemorated Nilsson first.

Repurposing FaF as a "Ring of Honor" thing is a great idea. I think my inaugural inductees would include Giordano, Regehr, Loob, Peplinski, Gelinas, and Roberts, among others. Perfect opportunity to recognize guys who maybe weren't around as long but made major impacts, like Makarov.

[Remember1989]

For jersey retirements, I agree it should be a high bar. We use words like iconic as a test of sorts. I tend to think that outside of some really extraordinary impact on the franchise, I tend to think you should have been objectively regarded as the best player at your position for some of your tenure. That’s true for Al, Iggy and Kipper. Not sure if you could say that about Lanny, Nieuwendyk & Vernon but would be interested in people’s thoughts on that.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

No problems whatsoever with the numbers already retired, and I believe the Flames have had discussions about simply converting 2 and 25 into retired numbers as they move into Scotia Place. I also think 13 should officially join that category at some point – there's no chance anyone ever wears it again here either way. Not even gonna get into the whole 14 thing, although it would be really funny if they commemorated Nilsson first.

Repurposing FaF as a "Ring of Honor" thing is a great idea. I think my inaugural inductees would include Giordano, Regehr, Loob, Peplinski, Gelinas, and Roberts, among others. Perfect opportunity to recognize guys who maybe weren't around as long but made major impacts, like Makarov.

I love me some Makarov
But what impact did he really have on the franchise?

[Calgary4LIfe]

Forever a Flame wasn't a bad idea. It just became a bad idea when it replaced retirement-worthy numbers. That's the mistake that was made. i think that the Flames should own it and go back to MacInnis and (IMO) Niuwendyk, and encourage them to return for a retirement ceremony. If MacInnis doesn't agree (and he may not), then just leave them as Forever a Flame, and move on (as they have been doing).


They should honor a few more members of that '89 team. I think the problem with that is how badly some of the players felt towards the end of their tenure here in Calgary. MacInnis grew up here, won a cup here, was the Conn-Smythe winner, played more seasons here in Calgary, and was more productive overall - and he feels more like a Blue. Gilmour was very happy to leave by the time he did, and is seen as a Leaf even though he was a major contributor in the Flames' (and his) only cup win. There are more.


I love Makarov - was my favourite Flame (along with Roberts) during his time here. Just too short of a tenure and too little of an impact. I was very, very happy to see him finally be accepted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 2016 which was LONG overdue considering his fantastic international career (FYI - He was often known as the "Russian Gretzky").


I will say this - I hope that the Flames never turn into the Edmonton Oilers and start patting themselves on the back and celebrating anything and anyone all the time. That's embarrassing, and that takes away any honours. It will cheapen the "Forever a Flame". I like that the criteria for retiring a jersey is fairly high in Calgary - very few retirements. I prefer to keep it that way. I think the threshold for Forever a Flame should also be held high, or it just becomes silly. They definitely should honour another 5-7 players IMO, but if it goes too much beyond that, it becomes devalued or cheapened in some way.


I wouldn't mind them including General Managers (only one is worthy), maybe some coaches (probably only two are worthy), some other managerial positions (like Ken King!).. Ed Whalen and Peter Mahar already have things named after them (as they should), so they don't need to be included here, but in the future long-term personalities of this type should be honoured. Just make it rare. If you are doing this ceremony every year, you have become the Oilers. Just stay classy and dignified.

[dino7c]

Niuwendyk wore a Flames jersey for the 100 greatest players thing...and good thing after Iggy got snubbed because it was the only one

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by BigThief

I think Ken King had a good idea but messed it up and fans are trying to make sense of why Al MacInnis, one of the greatest players we've ever had, isnt retired

I do not think that many fans are fussed with it. Many of them are probably more interested in who the next great #2 may be because they were not alive in the 80s.

It is really just the old fans that give it a thought and most of those old fans have likely heard the stories that the guy likes the Blues more than the Flames.

Personally, I am fine with #2 and #25 being FaF and not retired. If they were just not that into the Flames then why should the Flames throw a bigger than necessary ceremony for them and eliminate their numbers from future players?

The threshold for having your jersey number retired needs to be higher than a "meh" attitude from the player. You want to see a strong combination of factors:
- Significant individual contributions by the player while with the team
- Significant team achievements (cup wins / near wins) while the player was with the team
- High level of community engagement / adoration of fans
- Likes the team more than other teams they played for
- Special case: player does not do all of the above but plays ~20 years with the team (Backlund could head down this path)

If the player isn't checking off 4/5 of those boxes then they should not have their jersey retired and then you can have the FaF ceremony take over (but at that point you need to keep the jersey number in circulation). Quick rant: If we are not going to retire 14 then get a new person into the number so we can stop talking about it.

As for Gaudreau... the guy was a fantastic player and great for the Flames but (1) the team never made much noise in the playoffs during his tenure and (2) how he left the team was the worst (strung the team along and left us with literally nothing). In comparison, MacInnis got us Housley + 2 2nds + 4th and Nieuwendyk got us Iginla + Millen and some fans are still bitter about their departures.

Had it not been for the tragedy, I am not sure Gaudreau would have qualified for the FaF, much less a full retirement. It is fine if it happens but I hope that with some passing of time people will realize that the ceremony we had here with his family was excellent and sufficient.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Niewey, Vernon, Backlund, Gio, etc, those are all very special players to the Flames, but are not distinguished league-wide. Would we even categorize Gio a top-10 d-man of the past ten years league-wide?

Gio won a Norris. Three time All-Star. First team All-Star. Marc Messier Leadership Award as our captain. Third in Flames games played. Wonderful ambassador and community member. Retire #5. I have him above #13. Similar caliber of resume but Gio was loyal.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Follow what I was replying to.

Oh I did, your points are poorly presented and dont make a ton of sense as a large portion of his accomplishments you listed were under teams other than Calgary…much like Jagr.

Please try making better points.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Oh I did, your points are poorly presented and dont make a ton of sense as a large portion of his accomplishments you listed were under teams other than Calgary…much like Jagr.

Please try making better points.

CroFlames said Niewy wasn't distinguished league wide, he obviously was. It was a littles off shoot discussion from the main one. Was then talking about the player as a whole career, not sections.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by SebC

Gio won a Norris. Three time All-Star. First team All-Star. Marc Messier Leadership Award as our captain. Third in Flames games played. Wonderful ambassador and community member. Retire #5. I have him above #13. Similar caliber of resume but Gio was loyal.

Gio also jumped ship for Russia for a year. Is that a slight on his "loyalty"? No. Players have contracts and Gaudreau, like Gio did what was best for them.

Teams aren't loyal to players, players don't owe anything to the team.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Gio also jumped ship for Russia for a year. Is that a slight on his "loyalty"? No. Players have contracts and Gaudreau, like Gio did what was best for them.

Teams aren't loyal to players, players don't owe anything to the team.

The two are not comparable.

- Giordano chose to spend a development year in Russia instead of in the AHL. The Flames still had his rights and he came back and became a core member of the team for the following 13 years. In the end, Gio did not choose to leave the team, the team exposed him to the expansion draft and he was selected.
- Gaudreau left the team as a UFA in his prime after months of saying he was working to get a deal done with the team and didn't look back.

Between the two, I would absolutely put Gio higher on the FaF list, but I wouldn't retire his number because the team did not accomplish enough during his tenure.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Gio also jumped ship for Russia for a year. Is that a slight on his "loyalty"? No. Players have contracts and Gaudreau, like Gio did what was best for them.

Teams aren't loyal to players, players don't owe anything to the team.

And teams don't owe players jersey retirements. It can be an honour reserved for players who gave the team more than their RFA years if the team wishes to do so.

Yes, it is a blemish on Gio's loyalty. But a very minor one, compared to what Gaudreau did. If you want to earn the highest honour a franchise can give, you might want to go above an beyond for that franchise. IMO Gio did, and Gaudreau did not.

Even so, I wouldn't retire Backlund. Gio is a sufficiently better player that I draw the line between them even though Backlund's loyalty, community service, and longevity are even higher.

[BigThief]

Giordano took guaranteed money in Russia instead of accepting a two-way deal in Calgary. He showed loyalty to the team that gave him his first NHL contract after not being selected in the entry draft multiple times.

If you're going to make the loyalty argument you could do it however you wish. The way you spun "...and didn't look back" is pretty telling as well.

The loyalty thing is dumb, Gaudreau and Giordano owed the Flames nothing. One left when he was a UFA, as was he right. The other left to go play overseas when he didn't get the contract he thought he deseved..as was his right.

And if I recall correctly Giordano waived his NMC for the expansion draft. So yes, he did choose to leave the team knowing the likelihood of his selection was.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by SebC

Yes, it is a blemish on Gio's loyalty.

Cringe..Eww. Are you loyal to your employeer? I'm certainly not. Why should I expect it of anyone else. Loyalty doesn't have anything to do with anything. Stop talking about it. Its an weirdo sports fan obsession.

[Funkhouser]

Loved Gio, but he should 100% not have his jersey retired.

[CroFlames]

I'm not advocating for a Gio retirement, but I can't believe people are calling into question his loyalty? He was undrafted, and there was no guarantee he'd even make the NHL. So he took some guaranteed money in Russia. That is not a knock or a slight on him.

And if memory serves, the team asked him to waive for purposes of the expansion draft.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Cringe..Eww. Are you loyal to your employeer? I'm certainly not. Why should I expect it of anyone else. Loyalty doesn't have anything to do with anything. Stop talking about it. Its an weirdo sports fan obsession.

If I am not loyal to my employer, do I expect them to honour me? And don't try to tell me what I can and can't talk about. I'm not your employee and certainly have no loyalty to you.

We are talking about who deserves their jersey retired. What do you base it on if loyalty is not a factor?

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I love me some Makarov
But what impact did he really have on the franchise?

Still the last Flame to win the Calder Trophy. The very first Soviet player to make a significant impact in the NHL, and that happened in this city. To me, that's pretty neat, even though I never got to see him play. A HoFer who had a legendary career and had four highly productive seasons in Calgary. I think it all merits recognition on the basis of being historically significant.