12-17-2005, 12:38 AM
|
#61
|
CP's Resident DJ
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In the Gin Bin
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
... although only 25% were enrolled in a daycare centre.
|
Once you strip out the alternatives, there is the number.
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 12:39 AM
|
#62
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: YSJ (1979-2002) -> YYC (2002-2022) -> YVR (2022-present)
|
Quote:
I thought it was funny when an official Liberal Party spokesman implied that Canadian parents care more about their beer than their kids. Politically, that was pretty stupid of him, so the statement was (of course) retracted very quickly.
But now, you come right out and agree with him. So, despite the fact that the "official" statement has been retracted, it's pretty clear that you Libs really do feel superior to everyone else, even though you try to pretend to be the defenders of Canadian families.
|
There are Canadians who abuse EI. There are Canadians who abuse welfare. So too will there be Canadians who abuse Harper's planned baby bucks. I don't think it will be a majority of Candians or even a large minority, but that abuse will exist. To suggest that not a single Canadian parent will spend their $1200 inappropriately is the height of naiveté.
Quote:
As I said in the aforementioned other thread, no matter which party forms the next government, YOUR tax dollars are going to be taken from you no matter what.
|
And as I said in the other thread, I don't like either proposal, but at least the Liberal position will ensure that the money allocated to childcare is actually spent on childcare, whereas the Conservative proposal gives no such guarantee. Nor does the Conservative proposal make a lick of difference to the majority of Canadians who use childcare services. Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that $25/week is going to make a meaningful dent into any parents' daycare expenses?
Quote:
Why should you have any say in the allocation of the money if you're not a parent?
|
Because I'm a taxpayer, and as such it's my right to have a say into how my tax dollars are spent.
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 12:41 AM
|
#63
|
First Line Centre
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Boxed-in
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
I must contest
|
Contest all you want, but you're mis-reading the statistics. 47% of (eligible) children (aged 6mo to 5 years) are cared for by a parent. The other 53% use some form of non-parent child care, but only 25% of the total are in the institutional day-care that the Libs have pledged to fund.
I'll agree with your statement that "a majority of Canadian parents use childcare services as opposed to having one parent stay at home." Don't try to spin it to imply that the majority uses institutional 9-5 day-care though. There are other options, and the fact that the Liberals aren't open to those options indicates how out-of-touch they really are.
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 12:49 AM
|
#64
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ontario
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
There are Canadians who abuse EI. There are Canadians who abuse welfare. So too will there be Canadians who abuse Harper's planned baby bucks. I don't think it will be a majority of Candians or even a large minority, but that abuse will exist. To suggest that not a single Canadian parent will spend their $1200 inappropriately is the height of naiveté.
|
So you basically expect every single parent to spend an extra $1200 on their kid if they get this money???
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 12:51 AM
|
#65
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: YSJ (1979-2002) -> YYC (2002-2022) -> YVR (2022-present)
|
Quote:
you're mis-reading the statistics. 47% of (eligible) children (aged 6mo to 5 years) are cared for by a parent.
|
Not according to Statscan. Take a look at the statistics yourself:
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050207/d050207b.htm
From that link, where children are cared for is broken down as follows (using the most recent 2001 figures):
Someone else's home by a non-relative: 33.9%
Daycare Centre: 25%
Someone else's home by a relative: 17.1%
Child's home by a relative: 14.4%
Child's home by a non-relative: 9.5%
I fail to see how I'm misreading the statistics. Feel free to disagree with Statscan all you want, but according to their data, less than 15% of Canadian children are cared for at home by a relative.
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 12:51 AM
|
#66
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: YSJ (1979-2002) -> YYC (2002-2022) -> YVR (2022-present)
|
Quote:
So you basically expect every single parent to spend an extra $1200 on their kid if they get this money???
|
That's what it's there for, right?
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 12:56 AM
|
#67
|
Powerplay Quarterback
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Back in Calgary, again. finally?
|
83% of statistics are made up or misrepresented 
Funny, a lot of this boils down to this:
Who do you think is more qualified to spend money, You or the Government.
If you answer you, you probably vote Conservitive. If you answer the Government, you probably vote Lib/NDP.
Personally, I think we should stick children in 4x8 cubicles until they reach the age of 18, and then we can unleash them and have them fend for themselves.
1200$ a year should be more than sufficient for the food requirements for each child... mmmmm gruel....
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 01:01 AM
|
#68
|
CP's Resident DJ
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In the Gin Bin
|
OK FireFly, for the THIRD time... the debate begins NOW!!!
http://www.cpac.ca/asx/cpac2e.asx
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 01:04 AM
|
#69
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ontario
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
That's what it's there for, right?
|
It's there to help offset the CURRENT costs.. and if they decide to spend more then great.
Do you think the Liberal plan is to only provide new spots or to help with the old spots too?
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 01:05 AM
|
#70
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: YSJ (1979-2002) -> YYC (2002-2022) -> YVR (2022-present)
|
Quote:
Funny, a lot of this boils down to this:
Who do you think is more qualified to spend money, You or the Government.
|
Under the Liberal plan, the government is subsidizing the cost of childcare. Under the Conservative plan, the government is giving tax dollars to parents. In both cases, the government is spending money, but only in one is there any guarantee that the money the government spends on childcare will actually be used for that purpose.
Frankly, I'm surprised at how many (small-c) conservatives on this board aren't up in arms about both plans. I'm opposed to them because my views on fiscal policy are generally conservative. I don't believe the government should be in the business of childcare at all.
Suppose Jack Layton proposed an NDP policy where every Canadian below the poverty line was given $1200 from the government to spend as they saw fit. Most of the posters on this board would be crying bloody murder, and for good reason. How exactly is Harper's proposed childcare plan any different?
[Edit]
I just want to clarify my position on this whole childcare debate: I'm opposed to both the Liberal and the Conservative policy on this issue, but I happen to dislike the Liberal position slightly less. Don't mistake my posts criticizing the CPC policy as support for the Liberal policy in this case.
Last edited by MarchHare; 12-17-2005 at 01:12 AM.
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 01:05 AM
|
#71
|
CP's Resident DJ
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In the Gin Bin
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
There are Canadians who abuse EI. There are Canadians who abuse welfare. So too will there be Canadians who abuse Harper's planned baby bucks. I don't think it will be a majority of Candians or even a large minority, but that abuse will exist. To suggest that not a single Canadian parent will spend their $1200 inappropriately is the height of naiveté.
|
There are Liberals who abuse their power. There are Liberals who abuse their trust. There are Liberals who abuse their mandates.
Go figure.
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 01:10 AM
|
#72
|
CP's Resident DJ
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In the Gin Bin
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
Under the Liberal plan, the government is subsidizing the cost of childcare. Under the Conservative plan, the government is giving tax dollars to parents. In both cases, the government is spending money, but only in one is there any guarantee that the money the government spends on childcare will actually be used for that purpose.
Frankly, I'm surprised at how many (small-c) conservatives on this board aren't up in arms about both plans. I'm opposed to them because my views on fiscal policy are generally conservative. I don't believe the government should be in the business of childcare at all.
Suppose Jack Layton proposed an NDP policy where every Canadian below the poverty line was given $1200 from the government to spend as they saw fit. Most of the posters on this board would be crying bloody murder, and for good reason. How exactly is Harper's proposed childcare plan any different?
|
Hey, what can I say? I agree with you? However, welcome to the centrist world that is Canadiana!!! Would a Reform party support either? No. Would an Alliance party support either, probably not. But now... with the quest to be centrist.... all I can say is that of both, Harper's position has less government intervention, and in the long run, that is the CPC viewpoint.
Damned if you do... damned if you don't.....
BTW March, welcome to taxpayer hell.
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 01:14 AM
|
#73
|
First Line Centre
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Boxed-in
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
There are Canadians who abuse EI. There are Canadians who abuse welfare. So too will there be Canadians who abuse Harper's planned baby bucks. I don't think it will be a majority of Candians or even a large minority, but that abuse will exist. To suggest that not a single Canadian parent will spend their $1200 inappropriately is the height of naiveté.
|
...and there are governments who abuse the public purse. In fact, it seems apparent that 100% of governments abuse the public purse. I'd prefer a small minority of people abusing the baby bucks as opposed to a complete guarantee that the various levels of government will abuse the bucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
And as I said in the other thread, I don't like either proposal, but at least the Liberal position will ensure that the money allocated to childcare is actually spent on childcare, whereas the Conservative proposal gives no such guarantee. Nor does the Conservative proposal make a lick of difference to the majority of Canadians who use childcare services. Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that $25/week is going to make a meaningful dent into any parents' daycare expenses?
|
Can you tell me exactly how much monetary difference the Libs' plan will have to the average Canadian family? All we have from them is a set of vague promises to spend $11B on child care...it's not like the Libs have proposed a "universal child care program" for which people don't have to pay anything out-of-pocket. In addition to that, there's a huge difference between government "promises" and actual cheques written to parents. If you actually believe there will be $11B spent on child care over the next 10 years, I would suggest THAT's the height of naiveté. Any promise that extends past the 5 year mandate, or even past the election date, has to be taken as nothing more than an attempt to buy votes, especially given the Libs' reputation for breaking promises. On the other hand, a cash-in-hand program can't be revoked without people actually noticing.
With a straight face, I can tell you that $25/week might make the difference between a family choosing to purchase the cheapest child care available vs. a better quality of care. Suppose day-care costs $25/day...I would suggest that a 20% reduction in cost might make a "dent."
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
Because I'm a taxpayer, and as such it's my right to have a say into how my tax dollars are spent.
|
Agreed. So here's your choice: do you want your dollars spent on parents or not? If so, how is it possible that you're better qualified to spend those dollars than the parents themselves? If not, then why aren't you campaigning against the whole idea of social spending, instead of simply telling the parents of this country that you're superior to them? I suppose, in the latter case, you're kind of screwed if you wish to keep living in this country.
Re: Statistics...
Keep trying, but you're wrong. You have accurately shown that of children in child care, 25% are in day care, 31.5% are cared for by a relative, and 43.5% are cared for by a non-relative in a non-daycare setting. So, in fact, I was wrong in my last post. Of the total 53% of children who are in some form of child care arrangement, only 25% are in day care, for a total of 13% of Canadian children.
Is it worth $11B to you to care for 13% of the country's children?
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 01:15 AM
|
#74
|
Powerplay Quarterback
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Back in Calgary, again. finally?
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
Under the Liberal plan, the government is subsidizing the cost of childcare. Under the Conservative plan, the government is giving tax dollars to parents. In both cases, the government is spending money, but only in one is there any guarantee that the money the government spends on childcare will actually be used for that purpose.
Frankly, I'm surprised at how many (small-c) conservatives on this board aren't up in arms about both plans. I'm opposed to them because my views on fiscal policy are generally conservative. I don't believe the government should be in the business of childcare at all.
Suppose Jack Layton proposed an NDP policy where every Canadian below the poverty line was given $1200 from the government to spend as they saw fit. Most of the posters on this board would be crying bloody murder, and for good reason. How exactly is Harper's proposed childcare plan any different?
|
Ohh I don't actually like both plans, but I can debate their differences..
the difference comes down to whose spending the money, yes the government gives it in both cases,but who spends it is different.
Again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
but only in one is there any guarantee that the money the government spends on childcare will actually be used for that purpose.
|
this is an example of thinking government can spend the money best.
Personally I think tax credits are about the best option... that way the money never enters the governments hands. (yes yes, poor poor ohh no, think of the children)
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 01:17 AM
|
#75
|
First Line Centre
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Boxed-in
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
Frankly, I'm surprised at how many (small-c) conservatives on this board aren't up in arms about both plans. I'm opposed to them because my views on fiscal policy are generally conservative. I don't believe the government should be in the business of childcare at all.
|
Now that's a good point. I don't plan to have kids until I'm sure I can support them as I see fit. If you choose to do otherwise, SCREW YOU! I guess my current election views are shaped by the fact that I'm extremely limited in the government I can elect, so I choose to support the one that I think has the best chance of reducing government spending.
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 01:26 AM
|
#76
|
CP's Resident DJ
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In the Gin Bin
|
1:30 AM on a Friday, and we are debating taking care of babies instead of making them. :baby:
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 01:30 AM
|
#77
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: YSJ (1979-2002) -> YYC (2002-2022) -> YVR (2022-present)
|
Quote:
Agreed. So here's your choice: do you want your dollars spent on parents or not? If so, how is it possible that you're better qualified to spend those dollars than the parents themselves? If not, then why aren't you campaigning against the whole idea of social spending, instead of simply telling the parents of this country that you're superior to them?
|
See my last post; I'm against both childcare platforms. I think it's hypocritical to suggest that Canadian parents are any more deserving of $1200/year than poor Canadians. You could make a case that both are worthy recipients of government money, but I'm willing to bet that very, very few people on this board would defend a government policy that gave cheques to low-income Canadians to spend as they saw fit. In fact, I'd wager that you'd see dozens of posts saying that the poor would just blow the money on booze or other frivolities, yet when someone makes that same criticism against the Harper plan, they're decried as elitist and "anti-family".
Quote:
Re: Statistics...
Keep trying, but you're wrong. You have accurately shown that of children in child care, 25% are in day care, 31.5% are cared for by a relative, and 43.5% are cared for by a non-relative in a non-daycare setting. So, in fact, I was wrong in my last post. Of the total 53% of children who are in some form of child care arrangement, only 25% are in day care, for a total of 13% of Canadian children.
|
I stand corrected and concede the point.
Quote:
Hey, what can I say? I agree with you?
|
And on that note of (somewhat) mutual understanding, I must bow out of this debate, gentlemen. I would love to carry on like this all night, but I've got a plane to catch to the Maritimes (and while we're on the topic of the welfare state, don't get me started on my home province) early tomorrow, and I've been procrastinating my packing far too long.
I'm sure we'll have plenty more to yell at each other about when I return from my Christmas vacation.
Cheers.
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 01:33 AM
|
#78
|
CP's Resident DJ
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In the Gin Bin
|
Merry Christmas, March. Have a great holiday.
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 01:44 AM
|
#79
|
First Line Centre
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Boxed-in
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnski
Merry Christmas, March. Have a great holiday.
|
Ditto...Have a nice one...good discussion tonight...your adherence to the issues is much appreciated, even though some of your fellow debaters (  ) get a little over-emotional
Merry Whatever, and a Happy New Year!
|
|
|
12-17-2005, 01:49 AM
|
#80
|
First Line Centre
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Boxed-in
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnski
1:30 AM on a Friday, and we are debating taking care of babies instead of making them. :baby:
|
I'm a morning person
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:22 PM.
|
|