[Poll Request] Monahan Off-Season Trade Value (or negative value)

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sure, in the game before last he made a great stick lift and takeaway, stole the puck and started a play up ice. Hrudey mentioned it. He’s had a very good stick all year as far as deflecting passes and closing lanes goes.

My point is you can’t point to plus minus for a guy who, along with his linemate, has a very positive CF% accompanied by horrible shot percentage and say “that person is bad defensively”. Imagine if Monahan and Dube has even a normal shooting percentage. Those would be positive goals for, which immediately subtract from the goals against. Let’s say only 5 more goals each. That’s 10 off the minus and 10 onto the plus. All without changing a single defensive play.

In short, don’t show me plus minus, show me a series of bad defensive plays.

It’s not always about how you defend individually though, sometimes it’s about what you give up when you’re trying to score and this is what hurts Monahan’s defensive game the most IMO. His working in the forechecking department leaves a lot to be desired which hurts him more than the average forward because he lacks significant pace to his game. So when he gets burned, he’s forced to defend on the fly which leads to him picking up the wrong man, puck watching, being out of position and etc.

Sure, one on one, he’s quite solid. I’ve noticed an increased uptick in his intensity and assertiveness battling down low and etc. But what about his overall defensive coverage or defending the rush? Afterall, there has to be a reason he leads all forwards in goals allowed despite playing bottom 6 minutes.

This isn’t even a this year problem, giving up goals has been a problem for him dating back to his early years. I use to think Gaudreau was as liable as Monahan for their poor defensive play together, but the last 80 or so Flames games have changed my mind.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So you each had one example.

I am not a Monahan hater, I was just challenging your question to the other poster.

I wasn’t the one making the claim of poor defensive play. And no, he didn’t give an example (I gave one of each). I can list a fe more if you really want. But it’s not the point.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by EVERLAST

No expert here but statistics show how good Sean has been this year on face-offs.....he's having a career year.

I didn't look but I'm sure no one else has higher numbers on the team.

Sutter and Treliving would have done something or will do something as the TDL approaches.

I'd honestly rather have Sean available for the playoffs ....i think we might see some things we've not anticipated from him.
I keep him because of this.

Good person, doesn't take selfish penalties , easy to coach, been a warrior that's produced good numbers in the past , makes smart plays .....oh and I don't have the time to hate anyone on this team from top to bottom.

Finger pointing haters looking for someone to blame are LOSERS.
Sean's busting his Ass trying to get back to where he was ....he's 27 and is more committed than most players I've ever watched .

There are other players in the league that have gone through exactly what Sean has and is going thru but bounced back.....minus half the injuries when you look back at all the surgeries he's had.

At least he's not a quitter....so he gets high points with me and this is my opinion alone.
Thanks for coming out ....hope you like the show.

Of the guys that take a lot, Lindholm and Monahan are neck and neck. Gaudreau is 100%

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It’s not always about how you defend individually though, sometimes it’s about what you give up when you’re trying to score and this is what hurts Monahan’s defensive game the most IMO. His working in the forechecking department leaves a lot to be desired which hurts him more than the average forward because he lacks significant pace to his game. So when he gets burned, he’s forced to defend on the fly which leads to him picking up the wrong man, puck watching, being out of position and etc.

Sure, one on one, he’s quite solid. I’ve noticed an increased uptick in his intensity and assertiveness battling down low and etc. But what about his overall defensive coverage or defending the rush? Afterall, there has to be a reason he leads all forwards in goals allowed despite playing bottom 6 minutes.

This isn’t even a this year problem, giving up goals has been a problem for him dating back to his early years. I use to think Gaudreau was as liable as Monahan for their poor defensive play together, but the last 80 or so Flames games have changed my mind.

Monahan has the lowest HDCA/60 of any regular on the roster. I am not going to sit here and say that’s he’s had a strong season but there is no denying he has been terribly unlucky. You factor that in with not only his but his linemates complete inability to finish this year and we find ourselves having this conversation. He has absolutely zero confidence currently.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by EVERLAST

No expert here but statistics show how good Sean has been this year on face-offs.....he's having a career year.
.

When I checked the other day he was top 7 in the league at PP faceoff wins for players who have taken over 100 draws.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Monahan has the lowest HDCA/60 of any regular on the roster. I am not going to sit here and say that’s he’s had a strong season but there is no denying he has been terribly unlucky. You factor that in with not only his but his linemates complete inability to finish this year and we find ourselves having this conversation. He has absolutely zero confidence currently.

That's the thing.

Monahan's goals against are right in the pack with the other 9 forwards that have played the full season. the total range of even strength goals against between the 10 forwards is 25 to 36 (Gaudreau 36, Monahan and Lindholm at 33)

The difference is with goals for - the range for those same 10 players is 19 to 81 (Monahan and Dube at 19).

His -16 isn't because he's terrible defensively, it's because he and Dube have scored an almost impossibly low amount.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It’s not always about how you defend individually though, sometimes it’s about what you give up when you’re trying to score and this is what hurts Monahan’s defensive game the most IMO. His working in the forechecking department leaves a lot to be desired which hurts him more than the average forward because he lacks significant pace to his game. So when he gets burned, he’s forced to defend on the fly which leads to him picking up the wrong man, puck watching, being out of position and etc.

Sure, one on one, he’s quite solid. I’ve noticed an increased uptick in his intensity and assertiveness battling down low and etc. But what about his overall defensive coverage or defending the rush? Afterall, there has to be a reason he leads all forwards in goals allowed despite playing bottom 6 minutes.

This isn’t even a this year problem, giving up goals has been a problem for him dating back to his early years. I use to think Gaudreau was as liable as Monahan for their poor defensive play together, but the last 80 or so Flames games have changed my mind.

That's just a bunch of made-up assumptions on your part.

The second bold isn't true. And as I said in the prior post, the difference between all the players' goals against is minimal. It's the goals for where his delta is huge

[howard_the_duck]

Some call it luck, I call it a trend. 9(!) even strength goals in the last two seasons combined. 109 games I'd say is a sufficient sample size.

Is what it is at this point, but we are way past the the point of bad luck excusing Monahan's lack of productivity.

[Monahammer]

Luck and confidence are two sides of the same coin.

Might help if "fans" weren't constantly just ####ting on him thr last two seasons.

[BruceCody]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I still want to see him centering Mangiapane and Toffoli for an extended period of time (read: more than one shift).

Ruzicka better and cheaper option for this.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Some call it luck, I call it a trend. 9(!) even strength goals in the last two seasons combined. 109 games I'd say is a sufficient sample size.

Is what it is at this point, but we are way past the the point of bad luck excusing Monahan's lack of productivity.

The point is, for me, that I’m not excusing lack of productivity, though linemates has a lot to do with. He certainly looked tentative and his shot seems lacking. The lack of productivity is the point on his supposed bad defensive play. People assume that a minus = bad defensive play, whereas I would argue that if his offence was going he’d be close to even at least. I don’t think he’s a much worse defensive player than, say, Tkachuk.

[TheoFleury]

Tkachuk is better than Monahan defensively. Let's not get crazy here

The fact that you can actually say that Monahan's best attribute is defensive play from the bottom 6 pretty much says it all though

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

*unfortunately


Vladar's cap hit is less than Wolf's isn't it? He's providing insane value for his deal.

I don't mean that Vladar's cap hit is a problem. The situation is the Flames have Vladar who has had a great first year in the NHL and they have Wolf in the minors who is looking ready for an opportunity. I think Wolf's long term future with the club, personally. That means at some point Vladar gets moved and he is a significant asset.

Perhaps Vladar could be paired with Monahan or Lucic to rid themselves on a contract. Maybe the Flames could even get some return on top of it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Tkachuk is better than Monahan defensively. Let's not get crazy here

The fact that you can actually say that Monahan's best attribute is defensive play from the bottom 6 pretty much says it all though

He’s not though. He makes awfully foolish decisions in his own zone. And if we were going by GA as was suggested, guess who has more against them?

[Enoch Root]

no chance Vladar gets moved this year

Wolf is not ready - he's 20. Better to let him carry the load and have a playoff run in Stockton

If he can push for a spot next year, great. But definitely not a good idea to force it - that's a good way to ruin a kid

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He’s not though. He makes awfully foolish decisions in his own zone. And if we were going by GA as was suggested, guess who has more against them?

Minutes played and who they are against just doesn't matter I guess

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Minutes played and who they are against just doesn't matter I guess

I was reliably informed that Monahan leads the forwards in GA and therefore he was bad defensively. Except he doesn’t.

But on actual plays, yes. Tkachuk often makes low percentage passes in his own zone. And flies the zone fairly often. Lindholm glues that line defensively and Gaudreau has improved immeasurably. Tkachuk is still Tkachuk in his own zone.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I was reliably informed that Monahan leads the forwards in GA and therefore he was bad defensively. Except he doesn’t.

He actually literally does though.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I was reliably informed that Monahan leads the forwards in GA and therefore he was bad defensively. Except he doesn’t.



But on actual plays, yes. Tkachuk often makes low percentage passes in his own zone. And flies the zone fairly often. Lindholm glues that line defensively and Gaudreau has improved immeasurably. Tkachuk is still Tkachuk in his own zone.

Reliably informed? I'm attacking the quote I selected. Don't care about the timeline of others that got there

This is stupid. Only a moron would say Monahan is a fair value at 6.35m

We are arguing degrees of subjectiveness at every angle. The thing is though... IMO no credible argument can be made that he's worth even 50% of his cap hit.. defensively even. When you consider his entire contract was originally negotiated around his perceived offensive ability and potential it would at least be consistent... well... this whole debate gets hilarious in a hurry when we get fanboys defending hia defensive abilities at the end of the day... regardless of how limited they are even compared to a guy like Dvorak...

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Reliably informed? I'm attacking the quote I selected. Don't care about the timeline of others that got there

This is stupid. Only a moron would say Monahan is a fair value at 6.35m

We are arguing degrees of subjectiveness at every angle. This thing is though... IMO no credible argument can be made that he's worth even 50% of his cap hit.. defensively lol. When you consider his entire contract was originally negotiated around his perceived offensive ability and potential it would at least be consistent... welll. This whole debate gets hilarious in a hurry when we get fanboys defending hia defensive abilities at the end of the day... regardless of how limited they are even compared to a guy like Dvorak...

WTF? Who is talking about Monahan being “a fair value at $6.35M”? Literally no one has said that. Are you the real Theo?