Charging for quotes & estimates

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by btimbit

A few months ago I was thinking about how wasteful everyone is these days and how I remembered growing up we didn't just throw stuff away when it broke, we'd get it repaired. So when my dishwasher broke, I called a repair guy.

$75 for a guy to come out, look at it for 30 seconds, and suggest I just buy a new one anyway.

I look at dishwashers as disposable. I'm just going to buy them at Ikea from now on (my latest one is from there). They come automatically with a free five-year warranty (versus standard two-year warranty when you buy them anywhere else). When it breaks after that warranty is up, I'll just buy a new one. It's not worth paying someone to fix a dishwasher since they're so cheap anyway. Calgary labour rates are too high to make it make sense to have them repaired IMO. I know someone will say to buy a Bosch, but I think I'll come out ahead with my new system and my dishes are always sparkly clean so I'm doing okay.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by Sliver

It's not worth paying someone to fix a dishwasher since they're so cheap anyway. Calgary labour rates are too high to make it make sense to have them repaired IMO. .

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Welcome to the cost of labour in 2019 Canada.

Agree with you Sliver. Calgary rates (Alberta in general too, but moreso in Calgary I have found) are out of line with the current economic realities. Or maybe more accurately the cost of having something done as perhaps not all of that goes to labor. There has been a 'Calgary premium' on prices for a long time, business could get away with it when times were good but it's different now and it is time to adapt.

[You Need a Thneed]

My two cents:

For Replacing a Hot water Tank, you should probably be able to get a free estimate, even it’s a range - like others have said, the tank costs X, labour and other materials cost Y-Z, depending on the specific circumstances. The free estimate might be without actually seeing the place of work in person.

For toilet flushing issues - why would anyone give a free estimate for that? For such a situation, the diagnosis is literally the work. The plumber has no way of knowing if its a 5 minute job, or a three day job, without actually getting to the site and working. By the time he could possibly give you an accurate estimate, he would have fixed the problem. That’s why there is a charge for them to even come out.

[Shazam]

Toilets must be the most complex things man have ever invented.

Diagnosis? Here's your diagnosis: There's a bunch of #### stuck in it.

[BsFaninCGY]

Originally Posted by Azure

This is completely wrong.

From my experience a lot of the struggles contractors or small businesses have with growing their business is because they don't charge for estimates / drawings.

If you value price over quality & reputation, you will demand a free estimate. If you value quality & reputation over price you will be fine with paying for estimates for most things that require a substantial time commitment.

We've used a variety of methods, among them free first estimate, reimbursed estimate, simply charging for estimates, or free estimates.

The customers you love working with are the ones who have no problem paying for an estimate. Part of growing any home renovation type business is learning how to vet your clients, and charging for estimates is a great way of doing that.

There is also nothing holding a company back from reimbursing it back to the client after the work is done or calling it part of the payment towards the actual work.

Can't someone value quality and still want to have an idea of what they're getting into before the job begins? Money is tight these days, so just giving away $75 for nothing (if I don't go with the contractor after hearing their quote) means something. We have 2 bathrooms in our house - if it's going to be $500 to put a camera down a toilet I want to know that up front before I even give you my address. I've stated many times - I don't want anyone to come over for free. That alone is a service and one I'm willing to pay for. An 'estimate' - a guess - at a starting point is all I want. If I receive 3 estimates and they're all on par then I know everything is likely on the up and up. If one is 50% more than the other 2, I have to ask myself why. If one is 50% less than the other two - again, I have to ask myself why.

Thanks for being upfront and saying you're in the industry. I see your point of view, but I don't agree that people who want an idea of what they're getting into will only settle for low quality.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I look at dishwashers as disposable. I'm just going to buy them at Ikea from now on (my latest one is from there). They come automatically with a free five-year warranty (versus standard two-year warranty when you buy them anywhere else). When it breaks after that warranty is up, I'll just buy a new one. It's not worth paying someone to fix a dishwasher since they're so cheap anyway. Calgary labour rates are too high to make it make sense to have them repaired IMO. I know someone will say to buy a Bosch, but I think I'll come out ahead with my new system and my dishes are always sparkly clean so I'm doing okay.

That's actually good to know, I just took a look at they are made by Whirlpool. So for a similar price, you get a 5 year warranty vs one year. Thanks for the tip!

[Shazam]

Okay, so since your toilet still seems to be clogged, try this:

#1, you don't have a backflow valve on a toilet. Who the hell told you this? If you have a backflow valve it'll be in the basement, connected to your main sewer drain.

#2, the first thing to do is, do you have a tub you never use? The water in the p trap may have dried out, which results in really weird draining issues. So fill up your tubs a little bit so that their p traps have some water, and then flush.

#3, is your toilet over three years old? Then open the lid and check that the flapper is lifting properly and closing at the right time. Check that the tank is filling up to the line. Chlorine does a number on the plastic, so the filler may be worn out as well. If you have a chain to the valve, try adjusting that as well. Also make sure the handle is on tightly.

#4, if your toilet is more than a few years old, it may be worthwhile just to switch out the whole thing. Newer toilets flush much, much better than toilets from even 10 years ago.

And no, a goddamned plumber should not be charging for an estimate for a clogged toilet. Toilets are not a mystical device. They are very, very straightforward things and their domain of problems is well known.

[BsFaninCGY]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Okay, so since your toilet still seems to be clogged, try this:

#1, you don't have a backflow valve on a toilet. Who the hell told you this? If you have a backflow valve it'll be in the basement, connected to your main sewer drain.

#2, the first thing to do is, do you have a tub you never use? The water in the p trap may have dried out, which results in really weird draining issues. So fill up your tubs a little bit so that their p traps have some water, and then flush.

#3, is your toilet over three years old? Then open the lid and check that the flapper is lifting properly and closing at the right time. Check that the tank is filling up to the line. Chlorine does a number on the plastic, so the filler may be worn out as well. If you have a chain to the valve, try adjusting that as well. Also make sure the handle is on tightly.

#4, if your toilet is more than a few years old, it may be worthwhile just to switch out the whole thing. Newer toilets flush much, much better than toilets from even 10 years ago.

Thanks for taking the time to type this out.

1 - misspoke/typed. No, no valve on the toilet. Definitely meant on the mains (and that the potential issue could be paper caught up on it and causing issue.

2 - no tub. Older, never used (since we bought) shower tho.

3 - Not an issue with the tank. The toilet has been here as long as we have (1.5 years) and is a dual flush model. To be specific, the issue is that when flushed the bowl fills up. It eventually drains back to normal levels and every now and then seems to flush properly only for the issue to come back the next flush.

4 - I would happily replace the toilet if that's the issue. We'll see after the repair guy gets here tomorrow.

[Shazam]

There's your problem right there. Dual flush. They all are pieces of ####. There is not a one that works properly. Many plumbers refuse to install them anymore because they don't work.

[Fuzz]

My dual flush works great.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Azure

This is completely wrong.

From my experience a lot of the struggles contractors or small businesses have with growing their business is because they don't charge for estimates / drawings.

If you value price over quality & reputation, you will demand a free estimate. If you value quality & reputation over price you will be fine with paying for estimates for most things that require a substantial time commitment.

We've used a variety of methods, among them free first estimate, reimbursed estimate, simply charging for estimates, or free estimates.

The customers you love working with are the ones who have no problem paying for an estimate. Part of growing any home renovation type business is learning how to vet your clients, and charging for estimates is a great way of doing that.

There is also nothing holding a company back from reimbursing it back to the client after the work is done or calling it part of the payment towards the actual work.

You are either in business of unclogging toilets or writing up estimates. Make up you mind and choose your career accordingly, right?

Sorry. I disagree that new businesses struggle because they do free estimates.

And everyone values price. Higher labour price hardly ever = better service when it come to construction trades.

Get what you pay for in service industry is a sleezy sales pitch.
It can happen, but probably doesn't in many cases.

One thing I agree with is that working for customers that basically write you a blank ckeck is the best. No disagreements there ��

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by Azure

As someone in the industry I can tell you that the supposed idea of millions of contractors tendering bits for free is a rapidly dying practice.

I don't know if charging for a quote to change your hot water tank is necessary, but I do know that charging for a quote on any kind of reno work is becoming standard practice.

At the end of the day it comes down to a huge time commitment. Yes, you need to go after work so when starting a business there might be a few years where a lot of time is wasted trying to get your name out there.

Once the company is established it should be normal to charge for an estimate.

If you don't like it say thanks to an entire generation of people who value low cost over good quality.

I disagree with pretty much everything in your post, Azure.
I am a civil engineer and I have worked on all sides of the industry for over thirty years, as a contractor, consultant and a client. Never once I was allowed to charge for providing an estimate. Never once I have paid for one. We procure hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts annually now, ranging from $500 to $000,000's and we have never paid ONCE for obtaining an estimate from a contractor, no matter how small or how big. None of our competitors do either.

Estimating is part of winning the business covered by corporate overhead cost. Your overhead cost should be included in your bid; as simple as that. If you are hungry, your estimate will be close to your costs, so that you can feed the machine and keep working. If you are busy, you estimate is fat and you give it to make more profit than normally (or you decline to bid all together).

So, no, it is not a common practice in the industry. It is an anomaly and it is becoming a practice for shady outfits, who try to profit from providing a quote rather than from providing a service.

[Shazam]

Azure’s never responded to an RFP.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by BsFaninCGY

Can't someone value quality and still want to have an idea of what they're getting into before the job begins? Money is tight these days, so just giving away $75 for nothing (if I don't go with the contractor after hearing their quote) means something. We have 2 bathrooms in our house - if it's going to be $500 to put a camera down a toilet I want to know that up front before I even give you my address. I've stated many times - I don't want anyone to come over for free. That alone is a service and one I'm willing to pay for. An 'estimate' - a guess - at a starting point is all I want. If I receive 3 estimates and they're all on par then I know everything is likely on the up and up. If one is 50% more than the other 2, I have to ask myself why. If one is 50% less than the other two - again, I have to ask myself why.

Thanks for being upfront and saying you're in the industry. I see your point of view, but I don't agree that people who want an idea of what they're getting into will only settle for low quality.

Good points.

At the end of the day you want a company you trust not only on work quality but pricing as well, where you know you are paying fair price to get the job done.

I understand both points of view. I just hate it when people want to say that a reputable company won't charge for estimates. That is simply not true.

The part of the industry I work in generally involves substantial work in a clients home, so it is nothing as simple as changing a hot water tank or fixing a toilet. So my perspective is skewed a bit.

I just know that most reputable companies I know who do good quality work are starting to charge for estimates/drawings. They also happen to be booked for 3-4 months.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I disagree with pretty much everything in your post, Azure.
I am a civil engineer and I have worked on all sides of the industry for over thirty years, as a contractor, consultant and a client. Never once I was allowed to charge for providing an estimate. Never once I have paid for one. We procure hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts annually now, ranging from $500 to $000,000's and we have never paid ONCE for obtaining an estimate from a contractor, no matter how small or how big. None of our competitors do either.

Estimating is part of winning the business covered by corporate overhead cost. Your overhead cost should be included in your bid; as simple as that. If you are hungry, your estimate will be close to your costs, so that you can feed the machine and keep working. If you are busy, you estimate is fat and you give it to make more profit than normally (or you decline to bid all together).

So, no, it is not a common practice in the industry. It is an anomaly and it is becoming a practice for shady outfits, who try to profit from providing a quote rather than from providing a service.

Well I respectfully disagree.

The industry I am involved is is rapidly moving towards charging for bids & ESPECIALLY for tendered drawings that require any time of time commitment.

Why should I spend a couple days putting together a comprehensive bid package that includes drawings, prices & other specifications only to have someone take all that information down the road and get someone else to do it for 5% less?

Funny enough I have noticed that if you live in the free estimate work you get pure garbage for drawings, pricing that rapidly increases with he long list of change orders that come along after because the specifications coming from the architectural side especially are clearly the work of someone who knows he is not getting paid to actually do his job properly.

If you work with repeat clients who are trusted and know the process I would not charge for any kind of estimating work either. But if a home builder or general contractor comes along and wants pricing on a project that requires a big time commitment from our side, we do reserve the right to charge for drawings.

Our experience is it has removed the tire kickers from wasting our time and leaves us with more time to focus on clients we want to work with.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Azure

Good points.

At the end of the day you want a company you trust not only on work quality but pricing as well, where you know you are paying fair price to get the job done.

I understand both points of view. I just hate it when people want to say that a reputable company won't charge for estimates. That is simply not true.

The part of the industry I work in generally involves substantial work in a clients home, so it is nothing as simple as changing a hot water tank or fixing a toilet. So my perspective is skewed a bit.

I just know that most reputable companies I know who do good quality work are starting to charge for estimates/drawings. They also happen to be booked for 3-4 months.

Yeah, it sounds like CaptainYooh is talking more from the perspective of a large organization. Small business can't afford to have dedicated staff to respond to RFPs. Also, we don't do jobs worth 100s of thousands so there's nowhere to roll that type of overhead into. Like, if the job I'm doing at your house will cost $450 once I have everything I need, where do I charge you for my time to come out there and the fuel it takes to do it? Also, if I spend an hour away with you in the middle of the day, that's an hour later I'm staying at night away from my family to do my other jobs. There's a cost that needs to be directly billed to the person triggering the cost. Charging an onsite measuring/estimating fee is fair and transparent.

My company does some work at people's homes as well. If you have a project that is basic and you've sent me photos and rough dimensions, I can usually give you a price over the phone. If I then need to go to your house, I'll take a 50% deposit on the project first. I can't afford to have me or one of my guys running around all over the city with no guarantee of work or compensation. If I can't get a good read on what it is that you need, I'll charge you an hour to come to your house that you can apply toward the price of the project if it goes ahead. But guess what, I'll pad the job by that hour anyway since I don't think it's fair to expect anyone to work for free.

I can tell you the vast majority of people have no problem with this pricing. The usual response is, sounds fair.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Red

You are either in business of unclogging toilets or writing up estimates. Make up you mind and choose your career accordingly, right?

Sorry. I disagree that new businesses struggle because they do free estimates.

And everyone values price. Higher labour price hardly ever = better service when it come to construction trades.

Get what you pay for in service industry is a sleezy sales pitch.
It can happen, but probably doesn't in many cases.

One thing I agree with is that working for customers that basically write you a blank ckeck is the best. No disagreements there ��

As I said, I am not sure if I would charge to do an estimate for clogging up a toilet.

I would however charge to do an estimate for substantial plumbing work.

You are free to believe who you want, and hire whatever company you want. I just know that if you have a reputation for quality work most people don't have much of an issue with paying a small fee for estimates.

I should mention in our case the fee is less than 1% in value of the total project, and we find innovative ways of reimbursing it.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well I respectfully disagree.

The industry I am involved is is rapidly moving towards charging for bids & ESPECIALLY for tendered drawings that require any time of time commitment.

Why should I spend a couple days putting together a comprehensive bid package that includes drawings, prices & other specifications only to have someone take all that information down the road and get someone else to do it for 5% less?

Funny enough I have noticed that if you live in the free estimate work you get pure garbage for drawings, pricing that rapidly increases with he long list of change orders that come along after because the specifications coming from the architectural side especially are clearly the work of someone who knows he is not getting paid to actually do his job properly.

If you work with repeat clients who are trusted and know the process I would not charge for any kind of estimating work either. But if a home builder or general contractor comes along and wants pricing on a project that requires a big time commitment from our side, we do reserve the right to charge for drawings.

Our experience is it has removed the tire kickers from wasting our time and leaves us with more time to focus on clients we want to work with.

As a customer, I really appreciate this system. I'm getting some quotes for some work at my house right now. The guy I'm leaning toward is charging me $500 for drawings and the quote. I love that because I feel more comfortable being charged for the time and the price seems reasonable. He's been to my house twice already and one of the times he had his architect with him. The amount of work it takes to source out everything we want would be super time consuming. If I don't go ahead in the end, I can at least be comfortable that he's at least partially compensated for his time, although even at $500 for the quote I doubt he's making much/anything. For him, though, the fact that I'm willing to pay I'm sure sends the message that I'm serious about proceeding and I'm expecting the detail of the quote to reflect my investment in it.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, it sounds like CaptainYooh is talking more from the perspective of a large organization. Small business can't afford to have dedicated staff to respond to RFPs. Also, we don't do jobs worth 100s of thousands so there's nowhere to roll that type of overhead into. Like, if the job I'm doing at your house will cost $450 once I have everything I need, where do I charge you for my time to come out there and the fuel it takes to do it? Also, if I spend an hour away with you in the middle of the day, that's an hour later I'm staying at night away from my family to do my other jobs. There's a cost that needs to be directly billed to the person triggering the cost. Charging an onsite measuring/estimating fee is fair and transparent.

My company does some work at people's homes as well. If you have a project that is basic and you've sent me photos and rough dimensions, I can usually give you a price over the phone. If I then need to go to your house, I'll take a 50% deposit on the project first. I can't afford to have me or one of my guys running around all over the city with no guarantee of work or compensation. If I can't get a good read on what it is that you need, I'll charge you an hour to come to your house that you can apply toward the price of the project if it goes ahead. But guess what, I'll pad the job by that hour anyway since I don't think it's fair to expect anyone to work for free.

I can tell you the vast majority of people have no problem with this pricing. The usual response is, sounds fair.

This has been our experience as well.

I understand that charging $75 for an estimate that will lead to $250 worth of work is probably not going to fly, but charging 1% or less of the overall project value for estimates with the agreement that it can be reimbursed has generally not been a problem at all.

We handle things a bit differently. We'll charge for the estimate, but then do the on-site visit + measuring for no cost once the project goes ahead. Deposits are standard practice.

We also don't make a habit of charging for every single change order, something a lot of companies are happy to do and make you sign a contract that they will and you need to pay.

I just feel that establishing where the costs are out of the gate is a good way to vet clients. If you have good clients and you do a good job you tend to grow your business faster.

I also think a lot of the opinions here are coming from a Calgary market that has skewed pricing. I do not live in Alberta but we have bid on jobs in Calgary and the pricing structure has been through the roof for years.

Lots of people might have had bad experiences with that especially during some of the boom years.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by Azure

...
The industry I am involved is is rapidly moving towards charging for bids & ESPECIALLY for tendered drawings that require any time of time commitment.

Why should I spend a couple days putting together a comprehensive bid package that includes drawings, prices & other specifications only to have someone take all that information down the road and get someone else to do it for 5% less? ...

Looks like we are veering off the OP's point. Perhaps, your point is focused more on having someone stealing your work. If you are referring to, say, an extensive home renovation that involves designing a new space/kitchen/demolition etc, then either you or your client will have to do the design work first, before a quote can be made. If the client wants you to do it, then they should pay for this design work, of course, because it has value to them and not to you (i.e. they can take your design and price it with other bidders). However; if they have paid for the design to someone else (e.g. interior designer or an architect) and want your company to price it, then it should be free, if you want the job. If your company doesn't want to spend time pricing it, then the assumption always is, you are not that interested in getting it.

To Sliver's point about small vs. big: the rationale is the same for both:
If you don't have time to spend on an estimate, because you are doing work elsewhere already, then you are busy as it is; you just don't need this job and I don't want to engage someone who doesn't really want my job - it's a lose-lose relationship. If you do have time for an estimate, then you are not that busy and you should be thinking about getting busy, rather than bicker over getting paid for giving a quote.