[News] Calgary Flames sat down with the league to talk about penalties drawn on the team

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Toonage

So let's take a long term approach to this. Suppose everything we think is happening is confirmed and the officials have been unfairly penalizing the Flames. What is the recourse for the fans who spent all that money and time on what would ultimately amount to being a fixed sport? The NHL would have taken our money knowing full well that there was no way the Flames could compete on an even playing field.

It won't happen. You think the officials will ever stop denying it no matter what evidence is offered? You think the NHL will ever not back their officials no matter what? I mean the league by now has to be aware that officiating this year has been so far below acceptable it is ridiculous yet they do nothing to address it. We just have to wait it out.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I'm just going along with the metaphor. I think we could both agree that a teacher ignoring a students valid complaints is probably a pretty crappy , petty teacher.

Thus, the NHL would be crappy and petty to ignore complaints that are valid in a similar way. That McDavid Gaudreau sequence... Like come on.

It'd be like if both Johnny and Connor gave the same answers to the same question on the same test and Johnny failed while Connor was given a gold star and a happy ending.

Yeah, of course they are. Petty men who target a team like Calgary because they can. they would never do this to Detroit, Chicago, LA or Toronto.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Absolutely nothing. The NHL isn't selling hockey, they're selling entertainment in the form of hockey. You pay to be entertained, not to watch an even fight.

Having said that, I don't buy that the NHL is rigged and I don't buy the Wideman effect. I think this team is terribly undisciplined.

So undisciplined that for nearly two years, they were one of the least penalized teams in the league? And just by pure coincidence, after the Wideman incident the exact same players suddenly turned into the goon squad?

I don't buy it for a second.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I'm just going along with the metaphor. I think we could both agree that a teacher ignoring a students valid complaints is probably a pretty crappy , petty teacher.

Thus, the NHL would be crappy and petty to ignore complaints that are valid in a similar way. That McDavid Gaudreau sequence... Like come on.

It'd be like if both Johnny and Connor gave the same answers to the same question on the same test and Johnny failed while Connor was given a gold star and a happy ending.

Almost as if the teacher had some other goal in mind that this particular matter didnt effect so they dont care.

[Racki]

I believe that just this week we were given a clear cut example that the Flames are judged differently.

On Wednesday night against the Flyers Alex Chiasson gave Flyer forward, Nick Cousins what appeared to be a minor jab in the gut with his stick. Cousins certainly appeared to be embellishing a little bit from my perspective. Hell, even the majority of the Flyers fans on HF thought it was a sell job. Chiasson received a five miniute major and a game misconduct.

The very next night Milan Lucic gives Brandon Manning, a player that the Oilers were clearly targeting all night, a quick spear right in the nuts. Not only does Lucic only get a two minute minor but Manning gets two for embellishing.

If our Flames aren't being outright targeted by officials, at the very least there exists a double standard and we get no benefit of the doubt.

[btimbit]

^That's all I think it is. Not outright targeted but any time there's any sort of grey area the refs will call it against the Flames. For a lot of the questionable calls you could still make an argument for them, the problem is they're so borderline and don't seem to get called on anyone else.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Absolutely nothing. The NHL isn't selling hockey, they're selling entertainment in the form of hockey. You pay to be entertained, not to watch an even fight.

Having said that, I don't buy that the NHL is rigged and I don't buy the Wideman effect. I think this team is terribly undisciplined. Sure they get a weak call against them but so does everyone. All 30 fan bases think the refs are out to get them. If the NHL was fixed I think that would get out pretty quickly in this day and age. Maybe I'm wrong and it is fixed, but from what I gather I don't believe it to be true.

You're looking too deep with regards to the Wideman effect, that's why it seems unreasonable to you. The NHL doesn't have to be rigged for the refs to come together and get back at the Flames for a player ending the career of one of their own and Flames management coming out against the league and fighting the suspension.

fact: Gary Bettmen was pissed at the Flames for the way they handled it and did what he could to get back at them. Does that extend past what we publicly know? Probably, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it with any certainty

fact: The entire reffing community was pissed at Wideman and the Flames

fact: The way our team was officiated was altered IMMEDIATLY following the incident.



Those first two facts are large enough to sink a team in a league with so little difference between the top and bottom teams. It doesn't take some giant, intricate league wide rig job to put a 5-6th place western team in the 9-11 range. Just a slight against them with 2 officials on the ice affecting them with their bias.

[Stay Golden]

This meeting is all ass backwards by the Flames. The real controversy is all the hundreds of non calls that are clear infractions of slashing, hooking, holding the stick, interference and tripping that refs seem to flat out ignore. Pretend they don't see.
Every since the Flames backed Wideman on his stupidity this long list of garbage reffing has been ramped up.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

This meeting is all ass backwards by the Flames. The real controversy is all the hundreds of non calls that are clear infractions of slashing, hooking, holding the stick, interference and tripping that refs seem to flat out ignore. Pretend they don't see.
Every since the Flames backed Wideman on his stupidity this long list of garbage reffing has been ramped up.

I'm sorry, as much as I dont enjoy the decline in Wideman's play, I'm still with him on that incident.

Dude had no idea WTF was going on. I cant pin that on him.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm sorry, as much as I dont enjoy the decline in Wideman's play, I'm still with him on that incident.

Dude had no idea WTF was going on. I cant pin that on him.

Really? It seemed like a pretty clear check to the back. It was a non-issue if it was on a player, but on a ref that was about as egregious as it gets.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

This meeting is all ass backwards by the Flames. The real controversy is all the hundreds of non calls that are clear infractions of slashing, hooking, holding the stick, interference and tripping that refs seem to flat out ignore. Pretend they don't see.
Every since the Flames backed Wideman on his stupidity this long list of garbage reffing has been ramped up.

Liked for the first part. Disagree on "stupidity". I still think it was an unintentional reflexive reaction. And before anyone wants to get in a big argument, I recognize there are opposing opinions and I dont care to debate it.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Really? It seemed like a pretty clear check to the back. It was a non-issue if it was on a player, but on a ref that was about as egregious as it gets.

Really?

I thought we had respect around here for people who arent responsible for their actions because of influences that are outside of their control?

[heep223]

The reffing has been so atrocious that it's getting really difficult for me to watch. I actually am starting to question watching the games because I just get so pissed off and it's taking away from my enjoyment. I am happy as a STH to hear that the team has sat down with the league, whether or not it helps is up in the air of course.

I did initially wonder whether I'm just a massive homer, but when the media starts publicly pointing it out as well multiple times (and not just the local guys), it validates my feeling.

If this continues through the end of the year it certainly will impact my decision on season tickets next year. Most games I've gone to this year I end up feeling pissed off. Of course there is now some of my own bias in there so it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy, and in a way I feel bad for the refs because at this point they're overly scrutinized in our barn. But if they were a true professional organization (the union that is) they would address it and possibly even publicly. Either way I'm past the point of thinking that this is just my own bias and homerism. It's ridiculous.

[Zoller]

You guys don't think Treliving would have talked about the non calls as well? I have a hard time believing his only topic of conversation would have been calls that have happened. Calls against us and non calls against other teams go hand in hand.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Locke

Really?

I thought we had respect around here for people who arent responsible for their actions because of influences that are outside of their control?

Are you talking mental illness?

edit: I'm asking sincerely, btw. Wasn't quite sure what you were getting at there.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Zoller

You guys don't think Treliving would have talked about the non calls as well? I have a hard time believing his only topic of conversation would have been calls that have happened. Calls against us and non calls against other teams go hand in hand.

That's my issue with the whole situation. I don't particularly care if the Flames are undisciplined and take legit penalties.

It's the no call on the opponent for the EXACT SAME things that drives me crazy. The refs see these plays and ignore them.

[CaptainCrunch]

The next time Johnny takes a slash across the hands without a call the Flames should pull themselves off of the ice and take a forfeit.

At first I didn't believe in the whole Wideman effect, but over the last couple of weeks its becoming pretty clear that somethings happening.

Where it boiled to a head was the Frolik interference penalty where he stepped in front of the Canuck to get at the puck and was whistled. Meanwhile the whole game when the Canucks had the lead they were playing with one hand on their stick and one hand tugging and pulling and holding up the Flames.

When they called that ridiculous one sided penalty against Brouwer, when they called Versteeg for the 4 minute unsportsman like. The spear from the other game.

Its gotten to the point of ridiculous and the numbers from earlier in this thread with the massive change in penalty calls to the Flames shows a pattern.

The old saying is if you say you're going to call the game fair then call it fair.

We're going to get more unsportsmenlike penalties as the players get more and more frustrated.

Its too bad there's a roster limit, because it would be nice to just sign a team of complete cement head psycho's take the loss and run roughshod over the other team and then basically say if we're going to get called for penalties at least lets be clear that we are getting fair calls.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Are you talking mental illness?

I was actually talking about people who were recently concussed.

Again, Dennis Wideman has had exactly one crazy incident in his 11-year NHL career.

Once in 11 years seems like 'not a lot.'

Should he not be given the benefit of the doubt, given the extenuating circumstances surrounding the incident, to be able to continue on his NHL career without reprisal?

Evidently not.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Locke

Really?

I thought we had respect around here for people who arent responsible for their actions because of influences that are outside of their control?

Originally Posted by jayswin

Are you talking mental illness?

edit: I'm asking sincerely, btw. Wasn't quite sure what you were getting at there.

Originally Posted by Locke

I was actually talking about people who were recently concussed.

Again, Dennis Wideman has had exactly one crazy incident in his 11-year NHL career.

Once in 11 years seems like 'not a lot.'

Should he not be given the benefit of the doubt, given the extenuating circumstances surrounding the incident, to be able to continue on his NHL career without reprisal?

Evidently not.

Your wording really didn't seem like you were talking about other people who were recently concussed, it seemed you were hinting at other discussions on CP, but fair enough, I'll take you at face value on that one.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by jayswin

You're looking too deep with regards to the Wideman effect, that's why it seems unreasonable to you. The NHL doesn't have to be rigged for the refs to come together and get back at the Flames for a player ending the career of one of their own and Flames management coming out against the league and fighting the suspension.

fact: Gary Bettmen was pissed at the Flames for the way they handled it and did what he could to get back at them. Does that extend past what we publicly know? Probably, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it with any certainty

fact: The entire reffing community was pissed at Wideman and the Flames

fact: The way our team was officiated was altered IMMEDIATLY following the incident.



Those first two facts are large enough to sink a team in a league with so little difference between the top and bottom teams. It doesn't take some giant, intricate league wide rig job to put a 5-6th place western team in the 9-11 range. Just a slight against them with 2 officials on the ice affecting them with their bias.

fact: Bettman already said teams would be punished if he didn't get what he wanted. No new stadium=no all-star or other special NHL events.