The ongoing "how would you fix the goaltending" thread

[DynamRyan]

Invent a time machine, go back in time to July when we could have made a deal to ship Hiller/Ramo away, and do that. Repeat season. Profit.

[robbie111]

Try to pry Scott Darling out of Chicago and sign Ramo for next year and hope Gillies is close to ready the next year.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by DynamRyan

Invent a time machine, go back in time to July when we could have made a deal to ship Hiller/Ramo away, and do that. Repeat season. Profit.

It's been reported a few times that the Flames tried to move Hiller all summer but could not. Only team that showed any amount of interest was SJ, and when they got Martin Jones the Flames were left holding the bag.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I would look at Columbus.

They have Bobrovsky for 3 more years at 7.5

Option 1: Give then Raymond for Bobrovsky and 1.5 million retained
Option 2 : See how much they will retain to get rid of him. Maybe 2.5 million so we get for 5 million.
Option 3: If they are going to keep him see what they want for their other goaltender assets.

That almost certainly wouldn't work for Howard, so there is no way in hell it's working for the #1 cop on the force.

Elliott would be my hope as a reliable, value starter who lets us throw a lot of other spaghetti at the wall and see if something else sticks.

Dallas' goaltending situation is intriguing. Lehtonen is 32 yo a 5.9M 1B goalie with 2 years left after this. He's an upgrade, albeit not huge on what we've got now. It would have to be a 2 birds with one stone kind of thing; I imagine Dallas would rather pay Wideman to be their #5 D-man down the stretch than for Lehtonen to open the door. It doesn't sit quite right, but there could be something to do there. I would really like to avoid getting into same the situation as Dallas though; we overpaid two significantly worse goalies this year, but at least it was just one year.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

So one of my options was likely removed for next year with Ramo being out through training camp. My scenario now requires getting 2 bonafide NHL goaltenders for next season. I don't see any of Ortio, Poulin, or Gillies being anywhere close to regular duty.

Let's stick with Montoya as an option, and I propose that the only way to get a guy worth having is via the trade route.

I propose the idea of going after Ben Bishop.

Here's why: Andrei Vasilevsky. The organization really believes in the 21 year old, and could be poised to take the plunge with him as their main guy. In backup duties this year he has at least been solid, with moments of excellence. Also, the Lightning have more than just the Stamkos issue when it comes to the cap. Beyond him, they also have several high end RFAs that will need re-signing this off-season, most due for a significant raise.

Nikita Kucherov: Currently making just over $700 K. Leads their team with 48 points this year without the help of Tyler Johnson who was his main set up man last year. Had 65 points last year. He's become a top line winger that will likely replace Stamkos should he move on. No chance they can pay him anything under $4 M.

Vladislav Namestnikov: Currently making around $875 K. Is a solid 2nd line option that has produced 26 points in 55 games, so a little over 0.5 PP, but more importantly, has a team leading +15. He's a guy that plays both ends of the ice very well and consequently, will command much more than he's currently making. No less than $2.5 M.

Alex Killorn: Currently making about $2.5 M. He's another solid 2nd/3rd line winger who plays both ends of the ice well. Has averaged around 0.5 PPG for the last few years. He's coming off his bridge contract, and will likely want a contract closer to what he would get as a UFA. They might want to buy some UFA years, so factor that in too. With his age and previous accomplishments he likely gets around $4 M.

J.T. Brown: Currently making about $950 K. Brown is a prototypical 3rd liner, but like Killorn, will be turning 26 this off-season and will be closer to UFA status. He may not get a significant raise because his stats aren't overwhelming, but chances are he'll get close to $1.5-$2 M.

Nikita Nesterov: Currently making about $750 K. Nesterov has come in and given reliable minutes most nights on the 3rd pairing. With the Lightning likely to let Braydon Coburn go to UFA status, Nesterov is the most likely candidate to replace his spot in the lineup. With that likely comes a fairly substantial raise, even if he only plays 3rd pairing minutes. Likely set to make around $1.5-$2 M.

Cedric Paquette and Jonathan Marchessault are both 4th liners that will likely get a small raise. Between them, you could likely add about $1 M to the cap.

So, adding up all the expected raises for RFAs you can see an increase of about $10 M to their cap. If they lose BOTH Stamkos and Coburn they can afford all those players and have room to re-sign Vasilevsky next year. However, IF they have any desire to retain Stamkos (which is up in the air at this point), they would have to rid themselves of another large salary to fit him.

Ben Bishop is set to make $5.95 M next year. His Save% has been very consistent over the last 5 years hovering around the .920 mark. His career GAA is just 2.32. He's only 29 and he'll have lots of good years left until we have a young goalie ready to take over.

The Lightning can't afford him, and they have a stud young goalie ready to break through as early as next year. I say Treliving goes hard after him in the off-season. I'd even be ok with giving up someone like Kylington, Anderson, or Hickey in return.

I can't watch another season of sub-par goaltending. Please Brad, fix this problem. Give this young team some hope that their mistakes will be forgiven by an above average goaltender. Make it happen.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

So one of my options was likely removed for next year with Ramo being out through training camp. My scenario now requires getting 2 bonafide NHL goaltenders for next season. I don't see any of Ortio, Poulin, or Gillies being anywhere close to regular duty.

Let's stick with Montoya as an option, and I propose that the only way to get a guy worth having is via the trade route.

I propose the idea of going after Ben Bishop.

Here's why: Andrei Vasilevsky. The organization really believes in the 21 year old, and could be poised to take the plunge with him as their main guy. In backup duties this year he has at least been solid, with moments of excellence. Also, the Lightning have more than just the Stamkos issue when it comes to the cap. Beyond him, they also have several high end RFAs that will need re-signing this off-season, most due for a significant raise.

Nikita Kucherov: Currently making just over $700 K. Leads their team with 48 points this year without the help of Tyler Johnson who was his main set up man last year. Had 65 points last year. He's become a top line winger that will likely replace Stamkos should he move on. No chance they can pay him anything under $4 M.

Vladislav Namestnikov: Currently making around $875 K. Is a solid 2nd line option that has produced 26 points in 55 games, so a little over 0.5 PP, but more importantly, has a team leading +15. He's a guy that plays both ends of the ice very well and consequently, will command much more than he's currently making. No less than $2.5 M.

Alex Killorn: Currently making about $2.5 M. He's another solid 2nd/3rd line winger who plays both ends of the ice well. Has averaged around 0.5 PPG for the last few years. He's coming off his bridge contract, and will likely want a contract closer to what he would get as a UFA. They might want to buy some UFA years, so factor that in too. With his age and previous accomplishments he likely gets around $4 M.

J.T. Brown: Currently making about $950 K. Brown is a prototypical 3rd liner, but like Killorn, will be turning 26 this off-season and will be closer to UFA status. He may not get a significant raise because his stats aren't overwhelming, but chances are he'll get close to $1.5-$2 M.

Nikita Nesterov: Currently making about $750 K. Nesterov has come in and given reliable minutes most nights on the 3rd pairing. With the Lightning likely to let Braydon Coburn go to UFA status, Nesterov is the most likely candidate to replace his spot in the lineup. With that likely comes a fairly substantial raise, even if he only plays 3rd pairing minutes. Likely set to make around $1.5-$2 M.

Cedric Paquette and Jonathan Marchessault are both 4th liners that will likely get a small raise. Between them, you could likely add about $1 M to the cap.

So, adding up all the expected raises for RFAs you can see an increase of about $10 M to their cap. If they lose BOTH Stamkos and Coburn they can afford all those players and have room to re-sign Vasilevsky next year. However, IF they have any desire to retain Stamkos (which is up in the air at this point), they would have to rid themselves of another large salary to fit him.

Ben Bishop is set to make $5.95 M next year. His Save% has been very consistent over the last 5 years hovering around the .920 mark. His career GAA is just 2.32. He's only 29 and he'll have lots of good years left until we have a young goalie ready to take over.

The Lightning can't afford him, and they have a stud young goalie ready to break through as early as next year. I say Treliving goes hard after him in the off-season. I'd even be ok with giving up someone like Kylington, Anderson, or Hickey in return.

I can't watch another season of sub-par goaltending. Please Brad, fix this problem. Give this young team some hope that their mistakes will be forgiven by an above average goaltender. Make it happen.

I was on board until you said Kylington, Andersson, or Hickey.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I was on board until you said Kylington, Andersson, or Hickey.

Have to give up something. I don't want to give up a 1st round pick, so that's out. We have 3 defensemen who are very similar to one another. I think we could stand to lose one of them if it meant getting someone like Bishop.

Don't like it? Suggest something better.

Point is, we will likely have to make a strong move like that to get someone of Bishop's calibre. Be ok with losing a decent asset in one area to fix a glaring weakness in another area. Otherwise, be the Edmonton Oilers.

[Poe969]

I'd be on board with giving up Hickey but I'd also want tampa to take one other contract like Smid back too. I wouldn't be 100% opposed to getting Bishop in the off season/

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Have to give up something. I don't want to give up a 1st round pick, so that's out. We have 3 defensemen who are very similar to one another. I think we could stand to lose one of them if it meant getting someone like Bishop.

I'd hope Treliving won't trade an U20 prospect with a Top 4 ceiling for a stopgap goalie, because this is a rebuild and those U20 prospects are a lot more important than winning 10 more games and still getting bounced in the first round. We're not dealing from a position of excess here. We have three defenseman (Brodie/Hamilton/Giordano) one of whom is getting up there in age.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

As much as all 3 of those players would help us long term, it's doubtful that all 3 will become NHL players. However, we have no solution in net going forward, and it's so dire that our best option within the organization very well could be Gillies who would essentially be a 1st year pro coming off a year long absence due to injury and surgery. Can't see that working out very well.

No, this is the crux of the thing: there is no solution internally, and we can't wait for it to present itself. Free agency will only yield overpayment for a mediocre to poor goaltender. Our best bet at finding a good solution is through trade. I imagine if we sign guys like Reimer et al we will be having this same pining for a quality goaltender a year from now. Wouldn't you rather just fix this mess with a solid plan rather than just hope we find a diamond in the rough?

We don't have many assets that have value, but the one we do have (puck moving defensemen) is duplicated a couple of times. You say Gio is getting old, but he's got a good number of years before he'll need replacing. Besides, we have Brodie and Hamilton for years and years. Our top 3 is set for 5 years at least, so we have some time before we need a LOT of high end defensemen. That's why trading one of those three is the best bet at landing the goalie we desperately need.

We can't just not have a good goalie until a prospect develops into one. That's fool-hardy to know what will happen with goaltending prospects, as history has taught us over and over again. You have to get a guy that is already getting the job done, and then hope you develop a guy good enough to take the net away. Look at Mrazek and the Red Wings for example.

So while it might hurt a little to give up a higher prospect, we aren't giving up blue-chippers here. These kind of deals happen all the time and it's not often that the prospect going the other way vastly outperforms the guy he's being traded for.

I wonder if we had kept the draft picks this year whether people would have been happy with the players selected, or would they have rathered we just had another young stud defenseman playing 20 minutes a night.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by CSharp

If you can't trade Hiller by end of trade deadline, let the team roll with Hiller and see what'll pan out during the offseason. I think Ramo is fine for the team rebuild process. The team doesn't really need a top notch goalie to mask the effects of any defensive deficiencies like what Kipper did. With a good team rebuild, you want every single deficiency exposed and plug up the big holes first. Right now, the Flames have big holes defensively and not enough depth up front to win against the big and fast west coast teams in the south and teams like the Coyotes and even the Jets. Goaltending is the last of their worries.

I don't see the Flames trading Hiller at this point. As bad as he has been he is the only NHL goalie they have. The will not roll with 2 AHL goalies (even if he is playing down to that level).

Treliving has stated that his philosophy is to build from goal out so this situation must he killing him. I think goal is a much higher priority for him than you're suggesting.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Have to give up something. I don't want to give up a 1st round pick, so that's out. We have 3 defensemen who are very similar to one another. I think we could stand to lose one of them if it meant getting someone like Bishop.

Don't like it? Suggest something better.

Point is, we will likely have to make a strong move like that to get someone of Bishop's calibre. Be ok with losing a decent asset in one area to fix a glaring weakness in another area. Otherwise, be the Edmonton Oilers.

Mason McDonald. that's who I'd move. In the grand scheme of things if you;re aiming to get a good goalie now and you have two strong goalie prospects in your system, you move the one who is the youngest, who's about 3-5 years away from NHL time, giving you what you need now and more time to figure out what you need 5 years from now.

If they like McDonald, move him. And not just for Bishop either. Other goalies who look primed and ready to take over but are blocked by a legit #1. CLB comes to mind, they have two solid goalies behind Bobrovsky. Try to get one of Korpisalo or Forsberg, CLB can afford to push back the development of one of their goalies by two or three years.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I don't see the Flames trading Hiller at this point. As bad as he has been he is the only NHL goalie they have. The will not roll with 2 AHL goalies (even if he is playing down to that level).

Treliving has stated that his philosophy is to build from goal out so this situation must he killing him. I think goal is a much higher priority for him than you're suggesting.

Also, who would trade for him?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Stay away from Bishop until you see hoe he does in new equipment. He plays the same "shooter tutor" style Hiller does. I think he may suffer come smaller equipment.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Have to give up something. I don't want to give up a 1st round pick, so that's out. We have 3 defensemen who are very similar to one another. I think we could stand to lose one of them if it meant getting someone like Bishop.

Don't like it? Suggest something better.

Point is, we will likely have to make a strong move like that to get someone of Bishop's calibre. Be ok with losing a decent asset in one area to fix a glaring weakness in another area. Otherwise, be the Edmonton Oilers.

I would rather move Klimchuk or McDonald then any of those 3. Or a 2nd and a lesser prospect or player.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Peter Loubardias was on Sirius today and he was saying that he would bet money that the Flames have two new NHL goaltenders going into next season. The guy's pretty connected to the franchise and has been for many many years.

[1qqaaz]

What would it cost to get Philipp Grubauer? He seems pretty similar to Varlomov prior to his trade to Colorado

[Mattman]

Jonas Hiller ($4,500,000) for Pekka Rinne ($7,000,000) 50% retained salary, 2016 2nd, 2016 3rd

Rinne is playing like trash right now with one of the worst Save% in the league. What's the risk for them sending him and that massive cap hit out of their division. He's 33 and his contract has 4 more years but it would be less than what Ramo and Hiller make now.

Hiller can't play worse that what Rinne is doing on a higher pay grade. If he plays great it's a win for Nashville.

If Rinne plays good and maybe gets close to his old form that's a chance for the playoffs and win for the Flames.

If Rinne plays terrible for the Flames it's a guaranteed top 3 pick for the Flames. And that's a win of its own.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

As much as all 3 of those players would help us long term, it's doubtful that all 3 will become NHL players.

...

So while it might hurt a little to give up a higher prospect, we aren't giving up blue-chippers here. These kind of deals happen all the time and it's not often that the prospect going the other way vastly outperforms the guy he's being traded for.

That is why you don't trade any of them. A rebuilding team does not put its eggs in one basket and trade prospects for veterans. Or have you forgotten how we traded Laurent Brossoit for Ladislav Smid? Know who would look really nice in net right now? Laurent Brossoit. But they put their eggs into the Ortio basket.

If the one defensemen among those three that will become an NHL player is the one you trade away as gauze, you've made a huge mistake. Good teams aren't built by trying to "stop the bleeding". We have to be patient. We'll find a goaltender at a cost that makes sense.

It's not about blue chippers vs "good prospects". It's about the stage in the rebuild we are in. If Hickey shows he's the #4D of the future, then you're in a position to trade a Kylington.

The Lightning are a team that are in the stage of their rebuild where they can move an Anthony DeAngelo to fill a roster hole. We're not at that stage. Goaltending may be the toughest roster hole to swallow, but it's not the toughest to fill.

I imagine if we sign guys like Reimer et al we will be having this same pining for a quality goaltender a year from now.

Are we a cup contender a year from now with Ben Bishop in net?
IMO, no.
And if we are icing a contending roster, that's when you can trade away extra picks or prospects for a veteran goalie.

We don't have many assets that have value

And that's the center of my argument. This team is in an asset-building phase. We have to suck it up but hope that this team continues to grow so that the asset-building phase becomes a finishing-touches phase. The biggest mistake you can make is thinking because you have some star players you can wing it everywhere else until everything magically falls into place.

We can't just not have a good goalie until a prospect develops into one.

I'm not saying go into next season with terrible goaltending, but I am saying that mediocre goaltending in front of a good team will get still you a lot further than good goaltending in front of a mediocre team, as tough as it can be to swallow. The class of netminding we got last season for example, was good enough to beat the Ducks if we had a better team than the Ducks. The goal should still, first and foremost be to construct a great group of 21 skaters. Once you're really, really happy with your 21 skaters (and this is where over a full season you see if they are dominating consistently), then you can see what you have. And who knows, by then Gillies might be ready. If he's not, you can trade futures. Even a future first round pick, like 25th overall, for a goalie you really like (a la Martin Jones to SJS) is a fine tradeoff at that point. Or you can get a Dubnyk for a third. And then maybe that will be a Kylington type prospect but it won't sting half as hard if you have a roster that isn't dependant on prospects taking the next step soon.

That's something that should be considered as to why Treliving hasn't made a move for a goalie this season. Could he have? I'm sure. But he still has a long term vision.

Even if it's not a prospect that's the future goaltender of this team, I don't believe this team is desperate for anything better than a league average goaltender on a sensible contract.

I wonder if we had kept the draft picks this year whether people would have been happy with the players selected, or would they have rathered we just had another young stud defenseman playing 20 minutes a night.

The key in that is that unlike Bishop, Hamilton was 22 years old. If Hamilton was on the other side of 25 it would have been an awful trade.

[Dion]

The worst part of the goaltending situation is the rest of the leagues GM's knowing our crisis. My fears we will have to pay dearly for a tender via a trade.