Nutrition

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

Ok fair enough, but it isn't like I made up this logic on the spot- Given your knowlegde, I am sure you are aware that this is very commonly preached by many fitness people across the globe. Of course there are many that suggest differently, giving the sort of details you have. At the end of the day, I think the best thing to do, with regards to cardio and fat burning, is to test out the times and pre-cardio fueling that works best for you and gives results.

There is no doubt that pre and post workout fueling before weight training and lifting (non cardio sessions) is very important.

I haven't looked at the weight training side at all so I will accept what you are saying but the cardio stuff is classic trainer logic which is just repeated and people accept it because they think it makes sense. I don't think there is any kind of credible argument for the don't eat before cardio.

[Azure]

I'm not going to go find the research, but a lot of people on other fitness boards I read have said they have had favorable results with doing low impact cardio on an empty stomach early in the morning.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm not going to go find the research, but a lot of people on other fitness boards I read have said they have had favorable results with doing low impact cardio on an empty stomach early in the morning.

I am being lazy in not digging out any kind of real science to back myself up but anecdotal results greatly influenced by the placebo effect does not make it sound advice. I should add that doing long work outs beyond your glycogen stores not eating MAY be beneficial. But you are talking about 2hr plus cardio efforts which is not really tbat relavent to the average person trying to lose weight or even the average athlete.

If it "works" fine you likely aren't doing any harm but you might as well buy my rock that keeps tigers away.

[Thor]

I'm doing High Intensity Interval Training in the mornings on an empty stomach, fasting about 3hrs after I wake up, so eating about 30m to 1hr after my morning workout.

Example of 1 set is say 1 min rowing machine all out (so you can barely breath when that minute is up) and 4 mins of rest, not walking around, just pure rest. Do this 8 times, I mix in 3-4 exercises to keep it fresh, and this has been incredibly effective for me.

Certainly research is starting to back this up more and more as well, quick high intensity training for me is WAY more fun than 45 mins on a treadmill.

[GreenLantern]

I have only ever done HIT, it is by far the best (for me) for burning fat while maintaining muscle.

I hope we didn't chase DA out of this thread by being too aggressive, if so I apologize, please come back.

[Flabbibulin]

My approach when I first got into fitness was getting advice from those that both looked the part and had some level of education in the area. I would have a hard time listening to a personal trainer, that may be educated, but is in awful shape.

I admit fitness advice on the web is like golf advice on the web- the person may claim to be a scratch golfer or have a single digit body fat %, but at the end of the day, all they really are is an internet expert that may or may not be giving sound advice. No harm really in this I suppose, but you don't really know who it is coming from.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Thor

I'm doing High Intensity Interval Training in the mornings on an empty stomach, fasting about 3hrs after I wake up, so eating about 30m to 1hr after my morning workout.

Example of 1 set is say 1 min rowing machine all out (so you can barely breath when that minute is up) and 4 mins of rest, not walking around, just pure rest. Do this 8 times, I mix in 3-4 exercises to keep it fresh, and this has been incredibly effective for me.

Certainly research is starting to back this up more and more as well, quick high intensity training for me is WAY more fun than 45 mins on a treadmill.

HIT (high intensity interval training) is neat stuff but you really need to be committed to get the benefits. I am the oppisite of you where I would way rather go for a run outside in almost any weather than do any HIT. I am just dying by the time you try to do your 3rd or 4th set.

Whats crazy about HIT is that the 8 Minutes of actual effort provides equal or better cardiovascular health than running for 30-45 minutes a day.

[woob]

Hey DA - I know the original title of this thread is Nutrition, but it seems to have gone off the tracks a bit with training/workout discussion. I'd like to comment a bit on the nutrition/diet aspect again.

My partner got hit last year with an autoimmune disease that affected her skin. Little help from doctors left her searching for some kind of relief from the itchy/dryness of the condition. She eventually came across people online with same condition who had attacked the condition with a change in diet. So we embarked on a discovery of removing gluten, dairy, and eventually going full paleo in our daily eating. While the diet change definitely had a huge impact on the AI condition, it also had a side benefit of weight loss, change in energy, and just an all around improvement of how we feel day to day.

From my perspective, throughout my adult life I've always been a pretty constant weight, only fluctuating +/- 5 pounds for as long as I can remember. I've always been slim. After making this change in how we eat, I've dropped 20lbs in a month, no change in exercise, daily routine, etc. Just the change in diet. And I've kept that 20lbs off for 3 months now, just back to my regular fluctuations of +/- 5lbs. It's crazy to me to think that that weight just came off through changing how we eat in this matter, considering I never even thought I really had much weight to lose.

Regarding eating paleo, about the only thing I have odd cravings for is crackers, as I always used to snack on crackers. I've recently found a full paleo dough online which I'm going to make crackers with and see how they come out. Other than that, I don't miss any of it. I don't miss cheese, ice cream, bread, pasta and such. Also on the plus side, we've discovered a lot of good tasting food combinations, new food items, etc. We've even noticed that our palette has changed as well.

Anyways, thought I'd add my story to the mix here.

TL;DR: Went full paleo due to partner's health - Love it, feel better, lost weight, and discovered some awesome food in the process.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Nutrition is a complex and personal journey.

Not everyone has the same body, body chemistry, or GI tract ecosystems. Managing diets on the macro-nutrient level is effective to a point, but it sure sounds like you're looking to tune your body composition/performance well beyond what these guidelines and "common knowledge" can provide.

The Canadian Food Guide without a doubt will fail you on this journey.

Two super common mistakes that people make when trying to move beyond their normal results is ignoring the effects that HORMONES and DISEASE have on the body.

You are already on this path, but continue educating yourself. I can't tell you what will work for you - you need to find a guide that has achieved success under similar conditions as you and start there.

Essentially, you need to write your own manual, and it's going to be through trial and error. Be systematic, use data where you can, be as in tune with your body and moods as possible as these are massive clues when you can't rely on blood tests and other data based measurements.

Where can you start?

As much of an ass he is sometimes, I really like reading anything published by Charles Poliquin and his group of companies. He's been at strength and conditioning coaching for years, and has developed a lot of successful systems and brands, but really leaves a lot of threads to start pulling on where ever he goes. Here are some semi-relevant links that might get you started... really, follow up on his references because that's where the good stuff is.

10 Fat Loss Mistakes

Body Composition - Carnivores vs Vegetarians

Best Tools and Eating Programs for Fat Loss

Here is an interesting vegan bodybuilder reference I found while searching this topic.

I also like reading Robb Wolf's blog/books - a definitive source on Paleo for combating chrons/colitis, IBS, etc SO much interesting reading here. This blog entry in particular does a really entertaining job of grouping seven types of paleo eaters, LOL

Mark's daily apple is also a must read, for a lot of reasons. Primal Living in a Modern World - another credible information leader who references source material.

Last but not least, I recently stumbled upon John Durant of huntergatherer, after hearing his podcast on AoM on his book "Paleo Manifesto". He wanted to go way beyond diet and talk about how other factors influenced our lifestyle and health as we moved from paleo-like living, agrarian living to the modern world. Some things that blew me away were how important factors like the rules of hygiene defined and promoted by pre-new testament religions; the role of violence during paleo era life (and how to effectively incorporate it today); the importance of intermittent fasting, especially once we entered into agrarian living... SUPER interesting stuff.

The thing for me that is important about the paleo movement is not so much about eating clean, or eating like a caveman, or whatever the hell that is... but it's about using our modern minds to elevate our relationship with the CORE DESIGN of our bodies, honouring what is in our DNA, to live the best life possible - best energy levels, best moods, best mobility, best strength, best creativity, all of it. We are awesome machines, and we used to have to rely on evolution to guide the way to these best lives, but increased self awareness and design of environmental factors has really screwed that "trust factor" up beyond the point of repair.

Food, rest and exercise are indeed the best medicines we have for daily living.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by GGG

HIT (high intensity interval training) is neat stuff but you really need to be committed to get the benefits. I am the oppisite of you where I would way rather go for a run outside in almost any weather than do any HIT. I am just dying by the time you try to do your 3rd or 4th set.

Whats crazy about HIT is that the 8 Minutes of actual effort provides equal or better cardiovascular health than running for 30-45 minutes a day.

Yeah I understand its not for everyone, but I absolutely love it.

[AcGold]

I've personally found the fastest way to give my metabolism a huge boost is to superset sets of things like chinups, pushups, light jogging, elastic bands, light cables and just don't stop for 15 minute reps. Do 4 of them per workout with about 6 or 7 different things per set and keep moving. Best place for it is in a track/gym setup such as at Mount Royal or the UofC. Can eat pretty much whatever I want and don't gain any weight doing this. Stay away from heavy lifting kinds of things and do a lot of range of motion, stretching, low impact cardio kinds of things and you'll lose weight. I find the key is to not stop moving, just keep going until the 15 minutes is up, get some water, do it again.

[troutman]

Articles I have been reading:

Should you be “Eating Clean”?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...-eating-clean/

Categorizing foods as or diets as “clean” is clearly a successful marketing strategy, but is less useful when it comes to daily decision-making about good nutrition. Some of the concepts that underlie “eating clean” are supported by good scientific evidence. But the “eating clean” philosophy is imbued with a considerable amount of pseudoscience and a large amount of the naturalistic fallacy. Calories matter, and supplements probably don’t. For that reason, I would not recommend any of the “Eat Clean” and related books. There are too many inaccuracies to compensate for the good advice buried within. Dietary design needs to be based on good evidence, not anecdotes and logical fallacies.

It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...y-paleo-dream/

Ever since the rise of science and industry, there has long been a significant proportion of the population who distrust, fear, and sometimes even loathe modernity. Science changes too fast; it is thought to endanger “spiritual matters”; it tramples on “traditional values.” People fantasize about and long for a (nonexistent) time long past, when humans supposedly lived in harmony with their environment, and view science, specifically for the purposes of this discussion modern biomedicine, has having participating in destroying that “ancient wisdom.” We see strains of this tendency not just in medicine and “integrative medicine” but in literature and many other areas as well. Films such as Avatar and Dances With Wolves, among many others, portray scientists and “Western” man as rapacious and ready to destroy a race of hunter-gatherers and early agrarian people who are portrayed as living in complete harmony with nature. CAM and the Paleo diet share this fear of modernity as an underlying assumption even as their advocates use and misuse evolution to “prove” their worth. This is nothing new, and the rationale behind the Paleo diet is nothing more than, as Zuk has put it, the evolutionary search for our perfect past. Unfortunately, fantasy is not reality, and we humans have long been known to abuse and despoil our environment, even back in those “paleo” days

Death as a Foodborne Illness Curable by Veganism
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...e-by-veganism/

The video confirmed what I already knew from evaluating the published evidence: it is healthier to eat more plant-based foods and less red meat. It didn’t convince me that we should categorically eliminate all animal products. The vegan diet can be a healthy one, and I wouldn’t discourage anyone from following it; but the evidence for health benefits is nowhere near as impressive or definitive as the true believers think. Death is not “a foodborne illness” and eliminating all animal products is not a cure-all.

As Ben Goldacre said in Bad Science:

The most important take-home message with diet and health is that anyone who ever expresses anything with certainty is basically wrong, because the evidence for cause and effect in this area is almost always weak and circumstantial…

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

I have only ever done HIT, it is by far the best (for me) for burning fat while maintaining muscle.

I hope we didn't chase DA out of this thread by being too aggressive, if so I apologize, please come back.

Still here. Been busy, not scared away.

I've decided that for now, I'll simply split my breakfast. Half before the workout and add a protein shake after the workout. So, like, blackberries in greek yogurt when I wake up and then shake after the gym. Just have to bring the powder into work. That should be sufficient enough to get the protein up where my PT suggested it should be, and resolves the issue trying to get a good breakfast somewhere between the gym and work (not too likely... mostly greasy spoon diners and fast food) or bringing both a breakfast *AND* lunch to work each day.

Thanks everyone for the advice!

[blankall]

Originally Posted by troutman

Articles I have been reading:

Should you be “Eating Clean”?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...-eating-clean/

Categorizing foods as or diets as “clean” is clearly a successful marketing strategy, but is less useful when it comes to daily decision-making about good nutrition. Some of the concepts that underlie “eating clean” are supported by good scientific evidence. But the “eating clean” philosophy is imbued with a considerable amount of pseudoscience and a large amount of the naturalistic fallacy. Calories matter, and supplements probably don’t. For that reason, I would not recommend any of the “Eat Clean” and related books. There are too many inaccuracies to compensate for the good advice buried within. Dietary design needs to be based on good evidence, not anecdotes and logical fallacies.

It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...y-paleo-dream/

Ever since the rise of science and industry, there has long been a significant proportion of the population who distrust, fear, and sometimes even loathe modernity. Science changes too fast; it is thought to endanger “spiritual matters”; it tramples on “traditional values.” People fantasize about and long for a (nonexistent) time long past, when humans supposedly lived in harmony with their environment, and view science, specifically for the purposes of this discussion modern biomedicine, has having participating in destroying that “ancient wisdom.” We see strains of this tendency not just in medicine and “integrative medicine” but in literature and many other areas as well. Films such as Avatar and Dances With Wolves, among many others, portray scientists and “Western” man as rapacious and ready to destroy a race of hunter-gatherers and early agrarian people who are portrayed as living in complete harmony with nature. CAM and the Paleo diet share this fear of modernity as an underlying assumption even as their advocates use and misuse evolution to “prove” their worth. This is nothing new, and the rationale behind the Paleo diet is nothing more than, as Zuk has put it, the evolutionary search for our perfect past. Unfortunately, fantasy is not reality, and we humans have long been known to abuse and despoil our environment, even back in those “paleo” days

Death as a Foodborne Illness Curable by Veganism
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...e-by-veganism/

The video confirmed what I already knew from evaluating the published evidence: it is healthier to eat more plant-based foods and less red meat. It didn’t convince me that we should categorically eliminate all animal products. The vegan diet can be a healthy one, and I wouldn’t discourage anyone from following it; but the evidence for health benefits is nowhere near as impressive or definitive as the true believers think. Death is not “a foodborne illness” and eliminating all animal products is not a cure-all.

As Ben Goldacre said in Bad Science:

The most important take-home message with diet and health is that anyone who ever expresses anything with certainty is basically wrong, because the evidence for cause and effect in this area is almost always weak and circumstantial…

What all of these fad diets have in common is they have:

1) restricted calories; and
2) adequate or higher levels of protein.

There's nothing evil about bread/carbs/processed food/etc...other than they are all easy sources of calories. Cutting them out of your diet is a really easy way to cut calories though.

....except creatine. That is scientifically proven to work.

[Azure]

Yes, creatine is awesome.

[Flabbibulin]

For what its worth (possibly nothing, but Im bored), here are some of the basic supplements I am into at the moment- and kind of the standard for a lot of gym nuts. To be honest, I have never been sure how much of this gives actual results and how much is just supplement/fitness industry stuff.

I cycle creatine occasionally (monohydrate) and have had mixed results with regards to lifting ability in the gym and long term muscle gain. Most people seem to suggest they are bloated and retaining extra water when they are on a high daily dose of creatine. Because of that, it is usually used by people looking to put on muscle mass and maybe not so much for people looking to lean out and cut (up for debate). It does seem to soften you up a bit at first, which is noticeable if you are already quite lean. Cells retain the water and your body weight goes up.

Glutamine is another popular one that supports muscle repair and growth- I usually take 5g before and after workout and a once or twice at other times through out the day with meals. The need to supplement glutamine, in otherwise healthy adults, and its benefits are debated.

I usually take a multivitamin. Mega Men sport is usually what I go with- the vita paks are just too expensive.

I have tried an endless number of pre workout energy supplements and have settled on the caffeine free Rivalus Complx5. Being caffeine free is important for me as I workout in the evening and would have sleeping issues otherwise. Up for debate whether it adds to my lifting energy like a caffeine supplement would.

Take your pick in whey protein powders. Gold Standard seems to be very popular at the moment, as it dissolves easily and tastes ok. I usually go with vanilla as it seems to work the best when you mix it with oatmeal etc.

I think fat burners are a bit of a joke- if you want that kind of energy from caffeine, just drink a triple espresso.

On the opposite side, weight gainers are also a strange thing imo- usually just loads of sugar and protein. I would think it would be better just to make a homemade weight gainer with whey, oats, fruits, peanut butter??

As far as protein bars, the majority of them are basically chocolate bars (usually bad tasting ones other than Detour) with 30 grams of protein. The majority of protein bars are loaded with sugar alcohols as opposed to sugar. Two decent ones though are definitely quest bars (20 grams protein, 20 grams of fiber) and Daryls all natural protein bars. There is a woman at our work trying to diet that eats the large Detour bar every morning for breakfast as her meal replacement. umm...

edit- post on the next page by Street Pharm reminded me of vitamin D, which I simply take because doctor told me I am fairly low.

[Azure]

There is absolutely no need to cycle creatine. Loading for a few days to saturate the muscles and then taking 5g per day for the rest of your life is good enough. Drinking enough water is a must, and taking it after you eat is probably a good idea too.

Seriously, it is safe, cheap and it works.

[Flabbibulin]

^^^ Ya, I think cycling was how it was recommended a long time ago and the standard thought now is there is no need to. I have always just been in the habit of cycling for 2-3 months- initial loading days followed by before/after workout on gym days and in the morning on non gym days, but most experts now seem to suggest you never really need to take a break. I've even read you don't necessarily need to load??

[Azure]

http://examine.com/supplements/Creatine/

Creatine monohydrate can be supplemented through a loading protocol. To start loading, take 0.3g/kg bodyweight for 5-7 days, then follow with a daily 5g dose. Using 2g daily is another option, as that is enough to maintain average creatine stores.

There are many different forms of creatine available on the market, but creatine monohydrate is the cheapest and most effective form of creatine. Micronized creatine is easier to dissolve in water, which may make it easier to supplement.

Creatine is usually taken daily.

Too much creatine at once may cause diarrhea. Not drinking enough water while taking creatine may also cause stomach cramping.

Great site. Looks of indepth analysis on the stuff they look at.

Editor's thoughts.

I honestly see no reason why somebody shouldn't supplement creatine, nor do I see any logical basis for the seeming 'fear' of this compound in society.
It's safe, it's healthy, it's cheap, and for most people, it just works. Get some Creatine Monohydrate, take 5g a day, and you're good to go.
If humans didn't make any in the body, this thing would be a vitamin. There do exist deficiency symptoms that result in mental ######ation.[2] They're rare, but they pretty much establish the importance of this molecule as a vitamin-like compound.

I take 5g after lunch, and 5g along with my PWO shake. I know its overdoing it, but it works well for me.

[Flabbibulin]

^^^ wow, great site. Just checking out their entry on Glutamine, which I know isn't as well researched as creatine.