It's time to retire #14

[moon]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Moon,

You can just not go to the Dome that night.

Signed

Everyone else

What?

[Lanny_McDonald]

I hate agreeing with moon on anything, but I think he hit the nail on the head. Retired numbers are up there to not only honor past players for their accomplishments but for future generations to look up to and aspire to be. They are the legacy of the club. Who do you want your players to emulate on and off the ice? That makes a difference to me.

I still have mixed emotions about Vernon's number being retired because he was such a delta bravo off the ice when he was a Flame. He grew up when he left Calgary and became a pretty good guy and model citizen in many regards, so he earned a reprieve on the character issues.

Fleury was a good player, but he was also a disruptive force. It wasn't just in Calgary. The disruptive behavior continued in Colorado, New York and Chicago. He was a negative force where ever he went. Colorado refused to resign him after getting a taste. New York tried to help him but finally gave up on him. San Jose, who traded for his rights, elected not to sign him. Chicago ended up waiving him to get him away from the team. Yes, he dealt with a lot in his life, but he dealt with it in as negative and destructive a way as he could. He was not a good example in Calgary nor any place else he played. Other teams got it. I think the Flames should get it too.

[Flash Walken]

I hope the Flames retire his jersey before the league inducts him into the Hall of Fame.

[Gugstanley]

I really don't like retired numbers but if one guy deserves it Fleury would be my second choice. He did carry the team through some times when the Flames really lacked talent. Fleury has a lot of demons but still produced on the ice.

I was lucky enough to watch his first pro game in Salt Lake City, then he dominated the IHL playoffs even though he was only allowed to play ten games. Interesting life he has led, if I every hear his music again I will vote no.

If the Flames do hang a banner for Fleury it should be a little shorter than everyone elses. The guy that really should be honored by the Flames is Tim Hunter.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I hope the Flames retire his jersey before the league inducts him into the Hall of Fame.

You think that is going to happen? He violated the league's substance abuse policy numerous times and was even suspended for not following the aftercare program. I wonder if that will prevent him from being voted in?

[theoforever]

Perhaps my memory is foggy but I don’t recall Theo floating out there.
I do remember Iginla floating nonstop in the last few years.

Theo beat his demons, he persevered against all odds.
As a small player he needed to have a chip on his shoulder in those days the game was vicious.

I would like to see his number retired.

[moon]

Theo definitely had games where he would get pissed off and stay out of the Flames zone and coast around the neutral zone.

I don't think he was a habitually floater like a Kovalchuk or Kovalev but he certainly had games or periods where he floated without care about his team.

Like the selfish penalties it usually happened after he got pissed off at something/someone and was easy to pre-call it happening by watching his reactions to plays.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by moon

Theo definitely had games where he would get pissed off and stay out of the Flames zone and coast around the neutral zone.

I don't think he was a habitually floater like a Kovalchuk or Kovalev but he certainly had games or periods where he floated without care about his team.

Like the selfish penalties it usually happened after he got pissed off at something/someone and was easy to pre-call it happening by watching his reactions to plays.

Exactly. It is the immature personality that he always had, and continues to have that should hold him out of jersey retirement. Sure, he was a great natural player, but these moments should keep him out of the hall of fame, and should have prevented him from even obtaining captaincy. Whatever demons you have, it doesn't excuse behavior like acting a childish prick.

[dissentowner]

I would bet dollars to doughnuts if the overwhelming majority thought Fleury should never be retired by the Flames, moon would be insisting his number be retired this afternoon.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by krynski

Exactly. It is the immature personality that he always had, and continues to have that should hold him out of jersey retirement. Sure, he was a great natural player, but these moments should keep him out of the hall of fame, and should have prevented him from even obtaining captaincy. Whatever demons you have, it doesn't excuse the fact of being a childish prick.

Because the guy showed emotion? I don't give a crap what moon says, Fleury was engaged in the game every night and every shift during his tenure with the Flames. I saw Iginla take way more games ad shifts off than Fleury ever did. Give me a pissed off emotional player over a complacent one any day.

[wretched34]

Originally Posted by krynski

Comparing Iginla and Fleury isn't quite fair. They are two different players entirely with two different styles, and two different roles.

Personally, I wouldn't like to see Theo's jersey retired. He had a lack of respect. A lack of respect for his team, a lack of respect to the organization, and a lack of respect for his fans. Hanging up his number in the rafters isn't just about how many points you can put up, it represents the value he was to the team. It was simply lucky he won a cup with Calgary. That team was stacked and didn`t need him.

Yes, his PPG was higher, but hey, even Cheechoo had a decent PPG at one point. There is no doubt that he has changed over the years, but still, he decides to make stupid comments to media. I understand he has had a tough time growing up, but that doesn't mean recognition is warranted. I probably would have been all for retiring his jersey a little while back. When I watched his SO goal, I was elated. I would have accepted his retired jersey right then and there. Then, he didn`t make the cut. Oh well, we can`t all be NHL calibre for our entire lives.

It was his comments about Conroy that reminded me how I thought about him in the past. It was no longer water under the bridge. It was how much he blames his problems on others (and in a lot of ways, narcissism). I understand he had a tough childhood, I bet you a bunch of CP users have had challenging experiences just as bad. It`s not an excuse. I wouldn`t like to see his jersey retired because of his inability to keep it professional. If Fleury beat his kids, would you nominate him for jersey retirement? I wouldn't. Previous experiences don't excuse behaviour. Personality, professionalism, and being a profound and up-standing leader are my requirements for jersey retirement.

When you retire someone, you retire someone who exemplifies the franchise. If you retire Fleury, you tarnish the name that is the Calgary Flames.

Cause you know, every stacked team decides, "Hey, we're awesome this year, we'll win the cup for sure, lets call up a rookie and let him play, won't hurt us"...
Thankfully Fleury came up, and put up big points, in 36 regular season games, he had 34 points, putting him 12th in team scoring, at that pace, if he had played 79 games like the top scorers, we was on pace for 74 points, tying him with MacInnis for 5th in team scoring. He was 8th in team scoring, and 10th in points through the stanley cup run as well, ahead of the likes of Macoun, Peplinski, Hunter and McDonald.
Now remember, this is also his rookie season, so he wasn't getting top line minutes.

I'm just not sure how you can say his contributions were unneeded, and he was just lucky to be a part of the team so he could get a ring.

[moon]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I would bet dollars to doughnuts if the overwhelming majority thought Fleury should never be retired by the Flames, moon would be insisting his number be retired this afternoon.

As usual you would be wrong.

I have talked about this with regards to Fleury since his time with the Flames long before anyone talked about retiring his number.

But keep focusing on the poster rather than the post.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by moon

As usual you would be wrong.

I have talked about this with regards to Fleury since his time with the Flames long before anyone talked about retiring his number.

But keep focusing on the poster rather than the post.

Ok, I apologize if that is the case. I guess we both saw a different player out there then. It is just the poster has a reputation of disagreeing with everything Flames related.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

so is coffee and chocolate

What's your point?

[krynski]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Because the guy showed emotion? I don't give a crap what moon says, Fleury was engaged in the game every night and every shift during his tenure with the Flames. I saw Iginla take way more games ad shifts off than Fleury ever did. Give me a pissed off emotional player over a complacent one any day.

<edit, removed cause stupid> Can you really challenge Moon's penalty claim? The guy had emotion, but he couldn't direct it in the right direction. He did take stupid penalties, and that doesn't show leadership. That shows negative behavior. IN no way is negative behavior a positive character of a captain, nor a fellow who deserves his jersey retired.

This isn't a comparison to Iginla. That will surely derail the thread.

[dissentowner]

I find it absolutely mind boggling that any Flames fan would not want #14 in the rafters. There was never a more iconic player imo to suit up for the Flames. From the little man that could helping the team win the SC, the amazing story of what he went through, the attempted comeback to retire a Flame (should have made the team too) and everything he has done for the city of Calgary it is simply mind boggling.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by krynski

I don't think moon gives a crap what you say either. Can you really challenge Moon's penalty claim? The guy had emotion, but he couldn't direct it in the right direction. He did take stupid penalties, and that doesn't show leadership. That shows negative behavior. IN no way is negative behavior a positive character of a captain, nor a fellow who deserves his jersey retired.

This isn't a comparison to Iginla. That will surely derail the thread.

I disagree, Fleury would go out and initiate crap and take a penalty when the Flames were not engaged. You say he took stupid penalties yet you ignore the fact that Fleury drew way more penalties from the opposition than he took. He was a 5'6 hockey player in a big mans game, if he did not take some of those penalties guys would think they could just walk all over him. The guy was heat and emotion night in and night out while battling demons from a tough upbringing.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by wretched34

Cause you know, every stacked team decides, "Hey, we're awesome this year, we'll win the cup for sure, lets call up a rookie and let him play, won't hurt us"...
Thankfully Fleury came up, and put up big points, in 36 regular season games, he had 34 points, putting him 12th in team scoring, at that pace, if he had played 79 games like the top scorers, we was on pace for 74 points, tying him with MacInnis for 5th in team scoring. He was 8th in team scoring, and 10th in points through the stanley cup run as well, ahead of the likes of Macoun, Peplinski, Hunter and McDonald.
Now remember, this is also his rookie season, so he wasn't getting top line minutes.

I'm just not sure how you can say his contributions were unneeded, and he was just lucky to be a part of the team so he could get a ring.

Easy. The team was STACKED. He was lucky to be on that team. Sure, he contributed, but his contributions were not needed. I'm just saying, he was not a difference maker who carried that team to a cup.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by krynski

Easy. The team was STACKED. He was lucky to be on that team. Sure, he contributed, but his contributions were not needed. I'm just saying, he was not a difference maker who carried that team to a cup.

Ridiculous. He was a key contributer on that Cup run, the Flames very well could have not won had he not been there. Was he the reason they won? No, that was a great team effort but to say his contributions were not needed is absolutely not true.

[wretched34]

Maybe it was because I was to young to see Theo for what he was when he was a Flame, but the memories I have of the guy are all great ones, both on and off the ice.
I remember standing in line at Crowfoot Food for Less (before it became Safeway) for hours, waiting for an autograph, or hanging outside the dome after games waiting for autographs, and Theo was always nothing but happy to acknowledge the fans, especially the kids.
Perhaps he was a real dick to guys his age, or older, but from my standpoint as a child, he was a hero.
Years later, I saw him a lot at his Concrete shop, and he was always very welcoming and personable.
The guy is an icon in the fight against child sexual abuse, and a huge advocate for first nations. He does tonnes of local and nationwide fundraising and public/motivational speaking.

I guess I just don't understand the hate some of you have. I get that he had/has a strong personality, but isn't that what made him such a feisty emotional player? How could you honestly expect him not to have a chip on his shoulder after everything he went through?