I just don't understand why goalies are held to a much higher standard than players at other positions.
In the last 30 years, 55 players have been inducted to the HHOF, and only 4 of them were goalies (Smith, Fuhr, Roy, and Belfour). If we used the same "he was never the best player at his position" criteria for non-goalies, any centre whose career coincided with Gretzky and Lemieux shouldn't be in the Hall either.
There are typical only 2 out of 23 man nhl roster. 4 out of 55 isn't that much worse.
Sundin's top years came in the run-and-gun era, but I think you inadvertently hit on the difference between the two. Sundin was a steady, well above average forward for much of his career. Jarome Iginla was a steady, well above average forward who had several elite seasons.
Both have the gold... Sunding has three world champs and an Olympic gold. Iginla has a World Champ, two Olympic golds, World Cup, WJHC. In fact, one of the reasons why Scott Niedermayer is held out as being so great is the fact that he is the only player in history to win every major NA and world championship one can get - Memorial Cup, WJHC, Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold, WC/CC Gold, World Championship. Iginla needs only a Stanley Cup to match.
In terms of individual awards, Iginla's ability to be elite sets him apart. Sundin won the Messier and was named a second team All-Star a couple times. Iginla was all-rookie, 3x first team and 1x second team All-Star, 2x Richard, Art Ross, Lester Pearson, Messier, Clancy and was screwed out of the Hart.
Iginla > Sundin. But that is not to say that Sundin should not have been a first ballot HHOF. I do have a hard time putting him before Shanahan, however.
Well it is a bit easier to win those when you're Canadian. Sundin has led Sweden to Olympic and WC golds and is considered one of the top three Swedish players of modern days (with Lidstrom and Forsberg).
Anyways, I didn't want to argue who's a better player between Iginla and Sundin. They're two of my favourites of all time. Could be homer glasses, but I thought Sundin was an easy pick last year and Iginla will be when it's his turn.
It's funny because you could use the same argument people are using to put Iggy ahead of Sundin, to put St.Louis ahead of Iggy.
Doesn't have the goals, but the ppg is similar. Then St.Louis has the Hart trophy, 2 Art Ross Trophys, Pearson, and of course the Stanley Cup Iggy doesn't have yet.
Just shows how difficult it is to rank players over history, even when they are from pretty much the same generation.
Totally fair - the thought even crossed my mind, but I sort of put him below because I felt he didn't have any periods where he was as dominant as Iggy...but I also probably don't appreciate him enough based on where he plays (the exact same thing I would probably complain about with Iggy vs. Sundin - regional voter bias). The only other thing to trot out with St. Louis is quality of teammates...he's never had to be the main guy, or at least never the only guy (Richards, Lecavalier, Stamkos).
I think there is actually very little between the two of them...but I would still take either them slightly ahead of Sundin.
The hall has way to many people in it. They should drop to adding one or two players a year instead of 4. To many marginal players make it in and the people use marginal players as comparibles for who should be in there.
Selections would be easy if they just added 2 per year and you would always have a backlog of great players to add instead of struugling and debating over good to great players.
I'd say Sundin was a top ten player for longer than Iginla. He just never had the absolute break out year(s) where he'd be top 3 and in the running for trophies.
But I think being 7th in all time GWGs, a PPG player over his career and his great international record warranted a first year induction.
Not being able to bring Toronto a cup seems to bring him down in a lot of peoples eyes, but he didn't have much of a supporting cast for most of his years. Kinda like Iginla.
Please show me a season where Sundin was a Top Ten player...I'll save yu some time...there isn't one.
People throw around these labels far too easily.
Sundin had a great career...and he was amazingly consistent...certainly an elite player over an extended period of time...but Top 10 in the league??? Nope.
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Comparing Sundin to Iginla is difficult, comparing a Center to a Winger...both are great players that had stellar careers...but Sundin needs to be held up to other Centers, and Iginla to other Wingers for comparative merit.
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It's funny because you could use the same argument people are using to put Iggy ahead of Sundin, to put St.Louis ahead of Iggy.
Doesn't have the goals, but the ppg is similar. Then St.Louis has the Hart trophy, 2 Art Ross Trophys, Pearson, and of course the Stanley Cup Iggy doesn't have yet.
Just shows how difficult it is to rank players over history, even when they are from pretty much the same generation.
Iggy and St. Louis are a really good example of it all coming down to what you value. St. Louis has the cup but Iggy has the international medals, St. Louis has slighty better career ppg and notably better ppg in the playoffs, but Iggy has the longer career and higher point totals.
(Also, it feels kind of odd to put St. Louis ahead of Iginla based on that cup, when everyone knows that difference is based essentially on one goal.)
Personally I give St. Louis the edge at this point, because I think winning the Art Ross at 37, almost a decade after his first one, is the kind of stuff that HOF careers are made of. But since neither player is done, it's kind of a pointless discussion at this point
Please show me a season where Sundin was a Top Ten player...I'll save yu some time...there isn't one.
People throw around these labels far too easily.
Sundin had a great career...and he was amazingly consistent...certainly an elite player over an extended period of time...but Top 10 in the league??? Nope.
A difficult thing to prove. Lets just say that it's my own opinion that he was a top ten player in the world for a large part of his career. It's hard to find that many players more valuable to their teams in the late 90s early 00s. Torontos squad wasn't exactly star-studded. I believe that with a better supporting cast he would have the NHL numbers (and probably hardware) to prove it. He for sure proved it on international level.
Here is a nice text by IIHF on him:
Spoiler!
Mats Sundin (SWE)
Born: Bromma (Stockholm), Sweden, February 13, 1971
There is likely no player in the modern era who could step forward and say he had a greater international hockey career than Mats Sundin. Sundin was not just a part of several great teams – he led, dominated, controlled and produced victories for those Tre Kronor teams for whom he represented on so many occasions.
Apart from his four major international titles, three World Championships and one Olympic gold, he was named to five international All-Star Teams, was named MVP of the 2003 World Championship, and led three major events in scoring.
Sundin was the first European to be selected first overall at the NHL Entry Draft, an honour bestowed upon him in 1989 by the Quebec Nordiques. Over the next season he played at the U20 and then senior World Championships, joining the Nordiques in the fall of 1990.
Sundin didn’t wait long to make an impact for his country. At the 1991 IIHF World Championship, only 20 years old, he scored arguably the most sensational goal in IIHF history, going end-to-end in the third period against the Soviet Union to score the winning goal for gold. He played at the 1991 Canada Cup and at age 21 helped Tre Kronor repeat as World Champions a year later, leading the team in scoring with eight points in as many games.
Sundin had size and savvy. He had remarkable speed for a big man, and could stickhandle with intimidating effect. His backhand was second to none, and as he got older what emerged were leadership qualities to be admired by teammates and opponents alike. Sundin was traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs in 1994, the same city in which Borje Salming established his greatness, and it wasn’t long before Sundin was given the “C”, the first time a European had been named leader of the Leafs.
By the time he retired, his 11-year tenure as captain marked the longest such service by a European in NHL history. He was also the first Swede to reach 500 goals and in November 2012 became only the second Swede after Salming to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame.
But while Sundin was a remarkable NHL player, he was an even greater international one. He was a force supreme at the 1996 World Cup of Hockey, where he was named to the All-Star Team, and he won a third World Championship gold in 1998. He also played in the first three Olympics featuring NHL players, in 1998, 2002, and 2006. In Salt Lake 2002, he was a dominant force in a tournament. Despite that Sundin’s run was cut short by the team’s stunning upset at the hands of Belarus in the quarter-finals, he was still named to the Olympic All-Star Team and led the tournament in scoring.
The last of his Olympic appearances, in 2006 in Turin, cemented Sundin’s place in hockey history. Captaining the team, he led Sweden to a gold medal, assisting on the winning goal from Nicklas Lidström early in the third period. He declared after the game that he had played his final game for Sweden. He was right, but his legacy has no ending. The name Mats Sundin will live forever in the highest levels of international hockey history.
A difficult thing to prove. Lets just say that it's my own opinion that he was a top ten player in the world for a large part of his career. It's hard to find that many players more valuable to their teams in the late 90s early 00s. Torontos squad wasn't exactly star-studded. I believe that with a better supporting cast he would have the NHL numbers (and probably hardware) to prove it. He for sure proved it on international level.
Here is a nice text by IIHF on him:
Spoiler!
Mats Sundin (SWE)
Born: Bromma (Stockholm), Sweden, February 13, 1971
There is likely no player in the modern era who could step forward and say he had a greater international hockey career than Mats Sundin. Sundin was not just a part of several great teams – he led, dominated, controlled and produced victories for those Tre Kronor teams for whom he represented on so many occasions.
Apart from his four major international titles, three World Championships and one Olympic gold, he was named to five international All-Star Teams, was named MVP of the 2003 World Championship, and led three major events in scoring.
Sundin was the first European to be selected first overall at the NHL Entry Draft, an honour bestowed upon him in 1989 by the Quebec Nordiques. Over the next season he played at the U20 and then senior World Championships, joining the Nordiques in the fall of 1990.
Sundin didn’t wait long to make an impact for his country. At the 1991 IIHF World Championship, only 20 years old, he scored arguably the most sensational goal in IIHF history, going end-to-end in the third period against the Soviet Union to score the winning goal for gold. He played at the 1991 Canada Cup and at age 21 helped Tre Kronor repeat as World Champions a year later, leading the team in scoring with eight points in as many games.
Sundin had size and savvy. He had remarkable speed for a big man, and could stickhandle with intimidating effect. His backhand was second to none, and as he got older what emerged were leadership qualities to be admired by teammates and opponents alike. Sundin was traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs in 1994, the same city in which Borje Salming established his greatness, and it wasn’t long before Sundin was given the “C”, the first time a European had been named leader of the Leafs.
By the time he retired, his 11-year tenure as captain marked the longest such service by a European in NHL history. He was also the first Swede to reach 500 goals and in November 2012 became only the second Swede after Salming to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame.
But while Sundin was a remarkable NHL player, he was an even greater international one. He was a force supreme at the 1996 World Cup of Hockey, where he was named to the All-Star Team, and he won a third World Championship gold in 1998. He also played in the first three Olympics featuring NHL players, in 1998, 2002, and 2006. In Salt Lake 2002, he was a dominant force in a tournament. Despite that Sundin’s run was cut short by the team’s stunning upset at the hands of Belarus in the quarter-finals, he was still named to the Olympic All-Star Team and led the tournament in scoring.
The last of his Olympic appearances, in 2006 in Turin, cemented Sundin’s place in hockey history. Captaining the team, he led Sweden to a gold medal, assisting on the winning goal from Nicklas Lidström early in the third period. He declared after the game that he had played his final game for Sweden. He was right, but his legacy has no ending. The name Mats Sundin will live forever in the highest levels of international hockey history.
i think fleury needs to be in the HHOF. not only did he win the cup and a gold medal, but he paved the way for small players making a big impact on the ice. I know people look at his substance abuse, etc, as a deterrent, but i think how he's shed light on physical abuse in youth hockey should also be a big reason why he should be there.
At the end of the day, fleury left a positive footprint on the game, and he is a HOF in my books any day.
(sorry for random rant, but was listening to the fan on the way to work, and they seemed pretty against fleury being inducted to the hall).
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