Proof of God . . .

[Hakan]

The Bible would be a whole lot better if if instead of the 99% of the body being fairy tales and conjecture they cut it down to the exact words that Jesus said.

Imagine if all Christians lived by the actual words of Jesus?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Ace@Jun 14 2005, 03:09 PM
The one excuse I hear the most is that "bla bla bla, just cause they believe some book"

There are Christians who are intellectual, and are able to read the Bible and see the truth in it and believe it. God has given us an avenue to have confidence in the word through fulfilled prophecies. Accurate predictions
You can always come against Christians by saying they believe the writings of a book. <--- Yes this is true, God says it is by faith, and every true Christian is saved that way. Ephesians 2:8. But the beauty is it is not blind faith as the bible gives plenty of historically accurate evidence that it is truth.

Also please do not use the OT Differs from NT excuse without first studying them. It is ignorant to knock the book down when you havent taken the time to understand what it says. You must have some basic understanding of an area before you come against it.

(I too avoid these discussions, as it becomes a flame fest -- but i had to speak against the "just a book" argument)

I must admit that I didn't dig too deep into that Bible Desk website but early on I saw a couple instances I don't know, corrobaration or "facts" that basically work this way...

What the Bible says is true. How do we know this? Because it says it in the Bible.

It's not a very well laid out website so why don't you give us one thing that the Bible prophecied that has come true. I noticed a few references to basically the end of the world coming pretty soon. Do you believe that? What about the ark?

Oh and also I know it sounds dismissive when some people say "it's just a book" but don't forget that for an awful lot of people it is just a book so they refer to it that way. I don't think it's meant to be insulting. I think it's a book so I'm not going to refer to it as something I don't think it is.

[Mike Oxlong]

Originally posted by Hakan@Jun 14 2005, 09:26 PM
The Bible would be a whole lot better if if instead of the 99% of the body being fairy tales and conjecture they cut it down to the exact words that Jesus said.

Imagine if all Christians lived by the actual words of Jesus?

Since the first 50% of it (Old Testament) is before Christ that would be tough to do. The New Testament focuses mainly on the life and teaching of Jesus.

[Resolute 14]

Irony or targetted avertising?

I just noticed as I browse this topic that the banner ad at the top of the page is from a website called "coffeehousetheology.com" and says "Religion Run Amok: 7 great myths or organized religion / The critical fault line that seperates genuine spirituality from empty religious dogma"

[Ace]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Jun 14 2005, 02:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Jun 14 2005, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Ace@Jun 14 2005, 03:09 PM
The one excuse I hear the most is that "bla bla bla, just cause they believe some book"

There are Christians who are intellectual, and are able to read the Bible and see the truth in it and believe it. God has given us an avenue to have confidence in the word through fulfilled prophecies. Accurate predictions
You can always come against Christians by saying they believe the writings of a book. <--- Yes this is true, God says it is by faith, and every true Christian is saved that way. Ephesians 2:8. But the beauty is it is not blind faith as the bible gives plenty of historically accurate evidence that it is truth.

Also please do not use the OT Differs from NT excuse without first studying them. It is ignorant to knock the book down when you havent taken the time to understand what it says. You must have some basic understanding of an area before you come against it.

(I too avoid these discussions, as it becomes a flame fest -- but i had to speak against the "just a book" argument)

I must admit that I didn't dig too deep into that Bible Desk website but early on I saw a couple instances I don't know, corrobaration or "facts" that basically work this way...

What the Bible says is true. How do we know this? Because it says it in the Bible.

It's not a very well laid out website so why don't you give us one thing that the Bible prophecied that has come true. I noticed a few references to basically the end of the world coming pretty soon. Do you believe that? What about the ark?

Oh and also I know it sounds dismissive when some people say "it's just a book" but don't forget that for an awful lot of people it is just a book so they refer to it that way. I don't think it's meant to be insulting. I think it's a book so I'm not going to refer to it as something I don't think it is. [/b][/quote]
Yes you are right, The bible is used to proove itself. This works in two different ways. First, understand that the Bible is a collection of writtings from many different people written in many different time periods. Basically the OT predicts the coming of a Saviour and this is recognized by him fulfilling a multitude of prophesis. The new testiment is a writting of how Jesus is the one who came and fulfilled them.

Second the Bible prooves itself by the fact that it was written long in the past and yet many of it's predictions are coming true now, and are still to come. Take 2 Timothy for example.

There is a bunch of research to show how unlikly it is that any one person could have fulfilled all the prophesis (quadrillions to one), yet Jesus has fufilled every one. The objection that people have is that the fishermen and tax collectors that wrote the books would have known the prophesis and therefore to furthur their cause they would ensure they included him fufilling them all. Do you really think with so many hands on the bible, and with so many different people being used to write it, that they could accomplish this task without missing one prophesy? again it's faith, anybody can come up with an explanation against this. So you must have some measure of faith (but i don't believe it's blind faith).

Add... In answer to your question about narrowing one down on that site:

"3. The rebirth of Israel would happen after many days. It would occur a long time in the future after the prophecy was made and at the time the bible calls the latter days-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3.
Note: It is estimated that this prophecy was made around 580 B.C. Approximately 2500 years later, in 1948, this prophecy was fulfilled. "

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Ace@Jun 14 2005, 04:06 PM

"3. The rebirth of Israel would happen after many days. It would occur a long time in the future after the prophecy was made and at the time the bible calls the latter days-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3.
Note: It is estimated that this prophecy was made around 580 B.C. Approximately 2500 years later, in 1948, this prophecy was fulfilled. "

Okay I'm sure youve heard it all before but bear with me... isn't that saying nothing more than "Israel will be back"?

He uses another one in there about "a military power to the north". Well, there are only 4 directions. There is also a great military power to the east and west of Israel. A lot of them are pretty open ended and could be interpreted lots of ways.

People will be disobeying parents, using drugs and there will be famines? That's not much of a prediction or proof of anything. Hoarding gold and silver began in the 70s?

Did he take those verbatim out of the Bible or is there a spin on them?

Although I will admit it's quite a tale.

[Hack&Lube]

Again, there are so many infinite variations among Christian faiths and denominations, I personally do not suscribe to the "prophecy coming true" hype that Ace speaks of. These things tend to be very slanted and liberal in their sources and explanations as well as tenous in the correlations it draws between biblical prophecy and our current world.

People have been doing the same for 2000 years, and most times...they were outright wrong.

[Ace]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Jun 14 2005, 03:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Jun 14 2005, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Ace@Jun 14 2005, 04:06 PM

"3. The rebirth of Israel would happen after many days. It would occur a long time in the future after the prophecy was made and at the time the bible calls the latter days-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3.
Note: It is estimated that this prophecy was made around 580 B.C. Approximately 2500 years later, in 1948, this prophecy was fulfilled. "

Okay I'm sure youve heard it all before but bear with me... isn't that saying nothing more than "Israel will be back"?

He uses another one in there about "a military power to the north". Well, there are only 4 directions. There is also a great military power to the east and west of Israel. A lot of them are pretty open ended and could be interpreted lots of ways.

People will be disobeying parents, using drugs and there will be famines? That's not much of a prediction or proof of anything. Hoarding gold and silver began in the 70s?

Did he take those verbatim out of the Bible or is there a spin on them?

Although I will admit it's quite a tale. [/b][/quote]
Yes I've heard it all before, It’s good to have questions, it's better off at least looking into what the Bible says, then making a decision whether you believe it or not. Also, thanks for not "attacking" that is usually why I don't bother to contribute to these things.

Don't take the one prophesy on its own, take all the prophesis you can find. If you go back to that page you can read all 16 that are listed, and if you want to look more into it, there are plenty of others.

Saying "Isreal will be back" is a bold prediction concidering their distruction as a nation

As for the 70's statement. The "End Times" or Latter days speaks to a season. It wouldn't be ‘In 1970 such and such will happen’. Basically the 2 Timothy statement is a warning to Christians to watch for the Latter Days, and you would know the latter days by their characteristics. The last days could for instance refer to the 21st century. Think back to 1930's and you can see that this is a bold prediction because 2 Timothy is more true today than it ever would have been.

This is what the bible says "word for word" 2 Timothy

The characteristics of end time people. Most interesting to me is verse 5. "...having a form of godliness but denying its power" Is this not very true?

Word for Word:
Daniel 12:4
In the time of the end, people will increase their knowledge. Are we not the most knowledgeable society ever. And wouldn't you say that our knowledge has exponentially grown in the last 50 years specifically.

Like I said, You can come up with a dispute for every word that is written. Which also shows why God said it is a gift of Grace, through Faith that you are saved". He did not say it is by figuring it out intellectually that you are saved.

[JiriHrdina]

Well this is an interesting little thread that I've stayed out of until now.

"Word for Word:
Daniel 12:4
In the time of the end, people will increase their knowledge. Are we not the most knowledgeable society ever. And wouldn't you say that our knowledge has exponentially grown in the last 50 years specifically."

I would disagree with this. Think back to the early 1900s and how mankind advanced from say 1900-1930. Incredible knowledge gain. I would suggest that mankind has been increasing its knowledge exponentially since its birth.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I dunno if I'd call that proof. Scanned a lot of them and I'm sure you can find similar success rates from texts that aren't the Bible. And some of them are downright laughable...

"In the latter days they will hoard gold and silver"

Ummm, when haven't people hoarded gold and silver?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Ace@Jun 14 2005, 04:44 PM
Like I said, You can come up with a dispute for every word that is written. Which also shows why God said it is a gift of Grace, through Faith that you are saved". He did not say it is by figuring it out intellectually that you are saved.

Okay but this rapture/prophesy stuff is sort of figuring it out intellectually though isn't it? Like cracking a code it seems.

That first website you linked to (Bible Desk) was basically saying "this is going to happen so you better get on board". It's all about fear for that one. I don't want to taint the whole movement/religion/believers with saying it's about fear but it does sort of seem that way. Is it?

I've been studying this for probably about 45 minutes and I once saw a story on 60 Minutes so I am something of a respected expert on these matters.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally posted by JiriHrdina@Jun 14 2005, 04:51 PM
Well this is an interesting little thread that I've stayed out of until now.

"Word for Word:
Daniel 12:4
In the time of the end, people will increase their knowledge. Are we not the most knowledgeable society ever. And wouldn't you say that our knowledge has exponentially grown in the last 50 years specifically."

I would disagree with this. Think back to the early 1900s and how mankind advanced from say 1900-1930. Incredible knowledge gain. I would suggest that mankind has been increasing its knowledge exponentially since its birth.

Except for the middle ages, where religious intolerance not only erased the knowledge and techonological advances of western human history (Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Arab), but actively crushed and suppressed the advancement of knowledge, leading to rampant mysticism, superstition, and prohibited almost all secular writing.

Interestingly, the supposed burst of human invention and the rapid explosion of science in the 19th century is one of the reasons that Mormons cite for their faith being genuine as that is when their religion was started and god opened the heavens of knowledge upon the world or something like that.

Most of those websites, books, etc. that all cry "end times are near!!!" are something I am quick to distrust. It's a lot of fear-mongering and propaganda and I think that Christians shouldn't concern themselves too much with it.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Jun 14 2005, 05:03 PM
I've been studying this for probably about 45 minutes and I once saw a story on 60 Minutes so I am something of a respected expert on these matters.

That's sarcasm right?

[Ace]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Jun 14 2005, 04:03 PM
Okay but this rapture/prophesy stuff is sort of figuring it out intellectually though isn't it? Like cracking a code it seems.

Actually what the Bible teaches is that "no man know the hour of the Lords return". And it doesn't tell us to crack the code, but instead to watch so that you are alert. Matthew 24 Basically this is a warning not to convince yourself that the Lord's return isn't going to occur for a long time (should note: I'm not shouting doomsday here, just trying to explain the basic premise for the warnings) or you will be caught off guard and be unprepared when He does return. Link

My understanding of it (or my interpretation) is that as a Christian you should be living as if the Lord will return soon, or else you run the risk of being unprepared when he does.

Once again without faith you can always find another interpretation to explain away the Bible, so you must have some faith. That is why God is great he gives us the choice to accept him. It is a free choice; he doesn't force anybody to serve him.

[Ace]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Jun 14 2005, 04:03 PM
That first website you linked to (Bible Desk) was basically saying "this is going to happen so you better get on board". It's all about fear for that one. I don't want to taint the whole movement/religion/believers with saying it's about fear but it does sort of seem that way. Is it?

First off regarding this, I only sent the first site because it referenced some of the prophesies I am familiar with. I have not read the whole site so I’m not pushing it at all.

Is it about fear? --YES

Fear the Lord

Is this website correct in "Fear Mongering". Maybe maybe not. Definitely the Bible tells us that we should Fear the Lord our God. This acknowledgement that he has ultimate power over eternity is important in our Christian lives.

At the same time, I don't know if people will understand the whole plan of God if they are simply afraid of something someone posted on a web site. You accept Jesus through faith, and then you embrace him by reading His word to understand the mind, heart and person of God.

Faith is the first step.

[Mike F]

Re: Bible Prophesies

Take these two supposedly fulfilled prophesies from the above site:

The rebirth of Israel would happen after many days. It would occur a long time in the future after the prophecy was made and at the time the bible calls the latter days-Ezek 38:8
Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) “out of the nations.”-Ezek 38:8

Here's the cited passage:

7" 'Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them. 8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. 9 You and all your troops and the many nations with you will go up, advancing like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land.

Sorry, but these are no different than the Nostradamus Prophesies -- vague statements which people read selectively in such a way so as to make them apply to events which have already happened (i.e. people decided after the Re-establishment of Israel that these passages prophesised it to happen as such).

Had the mountains of Israel been desolate? Are all of the people in Israel now living in safety? And pray tell who are the people and nations that will invade, advance like a storm and cover the land like a cloud? And what are the chances that any invading army will still ride horses?

[Hack&Lube]

I think myself to be a pretty well read Christian, and I read it through and I have to say that website is pretty horrible and unconvincing. Indeed, it's nothing more than nostradamus mysticism and long-shot conjecturism drawing together correlations and parallels between things that wouldn't make sense without the solution.

It's just like the entire Bible/Da Vinci Code things. People are just drawn by prophecy but I don't think that Christians should be using it as proof of the veracity of scripture because what can men say for certain? I don't know any non-Christians that would be convinced by a amateurish website with such emotionally charged and stated claims like that. The tone is just too fundamentalist.

And the fear of God is not the same fear as we normally percieve in general thought and usage as in terror of punishment, of dread, desperation, or cruelty.

The fear of the Lord is an utmost respect and humility at what is before you, so much that it fills you with conviction and quivering at the absolute just power before you. It's like cringing at realizing how big the universe is and how insignificant you are.

[Cheese]

Originally posted by Hack&Lube@Jun 15 2005, 05:30 AM
I think myself to be a pretty well read Christian, and I read it through and I have to say that website is pretty horrible and unconvincing. Indeed, it's nothing more than nostradamus mysticism and long-shot conjecturism drawing together correlations and parallels between things that wouldn't make sense without the solution.

It's just like the entire Bible/Da Vinci Code things. People are just drawn by prophecy but I don't think that Christians should be using it as proof of the veracity of scripture because what can men say for certain? I don't know any non-Christians that would be convinced by a amateurish website with such emotionally charged and stated claims like that. The tone is just too fundamentalist.

And the fear of God is not the same fear as we normally percieve in general thought and usage as in terror of punishment, of dread, desperation, or cruelty.

The fear of the Lord is an utmost respect and humility at what is before you, so much that it fills you with conviction and quivering at the absolute just power before you. It's like cringing at realizing how big the universe is and how insignificant you are.

The fear of the Lord is an utmost respect and humility at what is before you, so much that it fills you with conviction and quivering at the absolute just power before you. It's like cringing at realizing how big the universe is and how insignificant you are.

Wow Hack...thats a fairly impressive statement. You should certainly consider getting into journalism or write a book. You have a way with prose that most dont!

It sounds very much like a spaceship landing in front of the hordes.
It could also mean the BIG Grade 6 bully in front of the smallish Garde 3 pupil demanding his lunch money...or else!

IF I was a religious man....and I think most of you know thats a stretch...I would want to believe that I would feel a great sense of relief and calmness at the site of a man so wonderful! I think most would want the belief that IF the Lord, the Supreme being was in front of them that he would provide the utmost protection against whatever Evil that religion spews to its masses? That in turn would make me feel more comfortable, more relaxed knowing that that Bully from grade 6 is gonna get a supreme arse kicking!

The again maybe Id just start speaking in tongues....

[Cheese]

...some additional fearmongering...

the Qur'an: Consider that the Bible and most Western literature are organized around a chronological or hierarchical order. By contrast, the Qur'an on initial examination seems to have no organizing principle. Its text appears as a disorganized, ad-hoc collection of brief but hard-impact, bullet-like warnings, identifications, and instructions for a sensuously-plush, no-responsibility, sex-drenched afterlife. …Incidentally, no mention is made of fun-filled afterlives for women -- no Chippendale hunks are promised to them.

The word Islam in Arabic means “to submit”. The most ardent-and-absolute Qur'anic command of Islam is to convert every Earthling to Islam...and kill every infidel who does not submit. Yet, the Christian Bible, in its Book of Revelation, surpasses the Qur'an in shear malevolence and hatred of humanity through advocating the brutal murder of every person on Earth. Remember, too, how for centuries devout Christians genocidally impoverished, tortured, and killed infidels, heretics, and free thinkers by the millions.

Today, hordes of Christian fundamentalists enthusiastically purchased 40-million copies of books by Christian authors Jenkins and LaHaye. Those devout authors describe how Jesus during his Second Coming will gruesomely execute nonbelievers as their “innards and entrails gushed to the desert floor…their blood pooling and rising in the unforgiving brightness of God”. And, what about the great flood? What about God’s incredibly-cruel, premeditated murder of every Earthling, save two?