City Ok's Crowchild Expansion

[Oxygen-Supply]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher+Apr 27 2005, 04:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flames Draft Watcher @ Apr 27 2005, 04:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-the_only_turek_fan@Apr 27 2005, 03:43 AM
How in the world is this going to work?

The current LRT line runs along 7th Ave.

If there are a lot of buildings built along 8th avenue they are going to have stations along 8th and have the train going north one block to 7th ave?

That makes no sense to me one bit.

Am I missing something here?

From what I read in this thread it sounds like the existing 7th Ave LRT might be completely replaced by an underground LRT at 8th Ave. That's my interpretation. [/b][/quote]

7th ave can physically only hold so many trains at a certain (and differing depending on location along the line) distance apart at any given time. As LRT traffic builds it has less and less flexibility and has to run perfectly at all times. They want 4 train cars running through that core at 90sec intervials, they are no where near that right now, nor can they be on 7th ave....

Any major projects and they will have to go underground on 8th.

They are going to move the current LRT line running along 7th Ave and put it underground on 8th avenue. Then use the 7th Ave line for the new NE and west line because transit traffic would not be as heavy on the new lines. It would help move car traffic more easily though downtown with fewer trains above ground.

There is no way they could build another line or even 2-3 more stations before their becomes to many trains and not enough room down town for all the trains coming in and out on the 3 tracks that exist now.

[Claeren]

-They could build a west line with no impact on current LRT core traffic.

-A move to 4 trains should allow an increase of traffic at DT stations ~30% with little to no effect on capacity of the line. (This could instead allow re-assigning of up to 30% of trains from current routes to new routes with no impact on total capacity, only an impact on train frequency.)

-A slow and continual increase in priority for DT LRT is increasing potential capacity for them, at the inconvienence of drivers of course. Should be able to see an increase of 20% min that way...

-Better switching on the west end of DT (they are currently working on it) would increase traffic through that bottleneck 10-20% as well.


Essentially, they can definitely run a west line off the current DT system and perhaps half of another line (SE likely), as is there plan. After that it is MAXED out though....

Claeren.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally posted by Claeren@Apr 27 2005, 01:05 PM
Exactly.

8th ave subway is a long way off but it is a much better (with all of the pedestrian traffic already there now, not to mention in 50 years) choice then 7th ave for such a project. It could/would make it a world class street...

7th ave can physically only hold so many trains at a certain (and differing depending on location along the line) distance apart at any given time. As LRT traffic builds it has less and less flexibility and has to run perfectly at all times. They want 4 train cars running through that core at 90sec intervials, they are no where near that right now, nor can they be on 7th ave....

Remember two points TOTF, the LRT is not going to the airport via the NE line and one line down 8th ave could double the amount of people the LRT could manage through that corridor per hour. As essentially a commuter rail doing 80% of its business between specific hours going from say 20,000 passengers/HOUR to 40,000 passengers/hour is HUGE. Looking around on my daily commute at other cars that would look to be a jump from 20,000 cars off the roads each HOUR of rush hour to removing 40,000 cars/hour.

I am not sure of actual hourly capacities but daily capacity should grow from ~100,000/day now, to ~200,000 when they HAVE to build a tunnel, to ~300,000-500,000 range when the tunnel is done and the othe rlines open.

A typical lane of freeway takes a non-rush-hour max of, i believe, 10,000 trips/hour. So i wonder how much it would cost (money and quality of life) to build a minimum of 10 freeway lanes into the core and 100 dispersal lanes for once those cars reach the core? Parking for them in the core? etc....


Claeren.

What you are saying does make some sense Claren.

BUT, a full benefit cost analysis must be done, before the 8th ave underground LRT is a go.

Coring is extremely expensive.

Also it will cost money to take down the existing infrastructure.

Thinking outside the box here a little, how about something like a double decker train? That would increase the amount of people that you can transport. I just pulled that out of my ass, I know its probably not a fesable thing to do, but all I wanted to say is that the city should explore ALL options before dumping a lot of tax money into this project if they go that direction.

[Claeren]

The Toronto GO-Train is a double decker train, but it is more of a HRT (Heavy Rail Transit) commuter system....


Claeren.

[Resolute 14]

A double decker train would require rebuilding the tunnels around Banff Trail, Memorial at 36th and MacLeod ad 39th x2. Not to mention redesigining the entire electrical grid to accept the higher trains, as well as potentially redesigning stations with overpass walkways and bridges over the tracks (ie, MacLeod N of Heritage) to also accept the trains.

And it still would not releive downtown congestion.

[Claeren]

Nothing will or should relieve downtown congestion except a lifestyle change to avoid it all together (ie living downtown).



Claeren.

[Tron_fdc]

I do believe there already is a tunnel underneath 8th ave, is there not? I thought city council did that way back when the LRT was first being conceived???

Or am I high?

[kermitology]

Originally posted by the_only_turek_fan@Apr 26 2005, 09:40 PM
The NW leg was the most expense of the 3 legs to build just because of that reason. The coring between Lions Park and Banff Trail and coring between Banff Trail and University was a lot of money for the city to cough up when it was being built.

Actually I think it had more with the city having to purchase land through those areas to get the line in place. With the other legs they already had right of way.

This whole Crowfoot extention has been in place for quite a while too.. My fourth year project was initially to be working on the design for a capacitor bank to maintain charge between Dalhousie and Crowfoot, but the capacators were blown in Oregon and the project was delayed beyond our abilities to work on it.

[Claeren]

Originally posted by Tron_fdc@Apr 28 2005, 08:50 AM
I do believe there already is a tunnel underneath 8th ave, is there not? I thought city council did that way back when the LRT was first being conceived???

Or am I high?

Did you read the entire thread? It is very clearly explained....




Claeren.

[Ironhorse]

Originally posted by Claeren+Apr 28 2005, 10:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Claeren @ Apr 28 2005, 10:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Tron_fdc@Apr 28 2005, 08:50 AM
I do believe there already is a tunnel underneath 8th ave, is there not? I thought city council did that way back when the LRT was first being conceived???

Or am I high?

Did you read the entire thread? It is very clearly explained....




Claeren. [/b][/quote]
I think he's talking about the underground station under City Hall. I believe it lines up closely to 8th Ave. If you look west while going through the NB tunnel (going into DT), you'll see the second tunnel vectoring off...

The put it in while putting in the City Hall foundations, as a future eventuality.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally posted by Ironhorse+Apr 28 2005, 07:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ironhorse @ Apr 28 2005, 07:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Did you read the entire thread? It is very clearly explained....




Claeren.

I think he's talking about the underground station under City Hall. I believe it lines up closely to 8th Ave. If you look west while going through the NB tunnel (going into DT), you'll see the second tunnel vectoring off...

The put it in while putting in the City Hall foundations, as a future eventuality. [/b][/quote]
Yes, that's what I was thinking about. I heard somewhere there is a gigantic underground station somewhere downtown; I think there was a write up in the Sun about it a few years ago. Does anyone know if it's jusone underground station or a series of tunnels?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally posted by Tron_fdc@Apr 28 2005, 02:27 PM
Yes, that's what I was thinking about. I heard somewhere there is a gigantic underground station somewhere downtown; I think there was a write up in the Sun about it a few years ago. Does anyone know if it's jusone underground station or a series of tunnels?

I beleive the entire 7th Ave is dug up with tracks and everything ready to go if need be. We had a thread on here sometime last year talking about it.

[4X4]

This secret tunnel is really starting to intrigue me. Check this link

here

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally posted by 4X4@Apr 28 2005, 03:45 PM
This secret tunnel is really starting to intrigue me. Check this link

here

Wow, great find!

I'd love to know how to get down there and snoop aroumd, it could be alot of fun.

[4X4]

He makes reference to some tunnels under the UofC also. Anyone know wtf he's talking about?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by 4X4@Apr 28 2005, 09:56 PM
He makes reference to some tunnels under the UofC also. Anyone know wtf he's talking about?

Might be talking about the old pedestrian tunnels at the U. Sort of a 'minus 15' idea to connect all buildings on campus via tunnels (because the winters here used to be cold).

Turns out the tunnels were not only useful for pedestrian traffic, but also stalkers/rapists.

No more tunnel access, except in limited places (rez?)

You can still find the doors that access the tunnels, but their locked. If you go to Social Sciences, go into the stairs. There's a dinky little gate stopping you from entering the 'sub-basement'. Hop the 'gate' or just push it, and go down. That's the door to the tunnels...

Now its just a place where pot-smokers hang out :P

[Ironhorse]

Originally posted by 4X4@Apr 28 2005, 03:56 PM
He makes reference to some tunnels under the UofC also. Anyone know wtf he's talking about?

Probably the utility corridors, containing electric & water / steam piping. SAIT has them too, and I got the grand tour once. All the buildings are connected with it; I went from the Burns building all the way to ACA.

[Incinerator]

Originally posted by Ironhorse+Apr 28 2005, 10:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ironhorse @ Apr 28 2005, 10:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-4X4@Apr 28 2005, 03:56 PM
He makes reference to some tunnels under the UofC also. Anyone know wtf he's talking about?

Probably the utility corridors, containing electric & water / steam piping. SAIT has them too, and I got the grand tour once. All the buildings are connected with it; I went from the Burns building all the way to ACA. [/b][/quote]
Yup, the clearance at some parts is really low though so watch your head if you're ever down there. It's not fun trying to navigate your way down there either.