2021/2022 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Pavelski is twice the player Mangiapane will ever be. It's not that bad if we are going to lose gaudreau, might as well go all in. Rather that than Pelletier and a 1st or something. Turn around and flip valimaki for kapanen. Then rebuild if gaudreau leaves because after 8 years all this gm has managed is a flimsy house of cards that is dependent on gaudreau being here No Johnny is going to make you all pine for the young guns instead of what's ahead

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

There is no point in keeping Mangiapane either way. If we keep 13 and 19, he's redundant. If we lose either/both, it's time to rebuild unless you think a team with Mangiapane as a top forward has potential lol

Redundant or sign him 6x 6m and be subjected to 6 75-85 point seasons, drafting 10th-15th...

Back to back God awful posts.

Impressive, really.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by keenan87

I have no problem with trading Mangiapane while his value is high. Not sure what he can get though.

As for other targets: I still think the Flames should try and pick up Konecny or Hischier.

It would also be really great if the Flames can rid themselves of Monahan, Lucic, and Backlund contracts.

Speaking of which... what about a deal around Monahan and Konecny? Two players that can use a change.

I can't figure out what's wrong with Konecny and don't watch Philly enough to speculate. But it's weird.
Hischier I think is still a big part of NJ's future. He isn't the offensive star that it seemed like he would be, but he tracks to be a very good 2nd line centre. Running Hughes/Hischier going forward up the middle sets them up very well.

I think he's also their captain.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Pavelski is twice the player Mangiapane will ever be. It's not that bad if we are going to lose gaudreau, might as well go all in. Rather that than Pelletier and a 1st or something. Turn around and flip valimaki for kapanen. Then rebuild if gaudreau leaves because after 8 years all this gm has managed is a flimsy house of cards that is dependent on gaudreau being here No Johnny is going to make you all pine for the young guns instead of what's ahead

This is more than funny. Before Mangiapane made it to NHL, people said he's a career AHLer, will never make it to the big. Then he did, and people said, he's a career 4th liner, not going to make any impact. Then he did. And now saying Pavelski is twice the player Mangiapane will ever be. "Will ever be"? Pavelski is 37 and Mangiapane is 25, they are 12 years apart. Who to say Mangiapane not going to be just as good as Pavelski in the next 12 years? Fine, you can say Pavelski has done more in his career, score more points. But he is 37.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I could definitely see him being a target for a late pick to fill in on the third or fourth line

What kind of "late" pick do you think it would take. I think there are tons of teams that would like to add a player like him for the playoffs. It might take as much as a second round pick.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Treliving has painted the team into a corner. Enjoy this season folks. Who knows what this team will look like in 18 months, but it ain't looking good.

To me this looks a lot like how Jarmo Kekalainen handled the 18-19 Blue Jackets and he was applauded at the time.

He could have traded Panarin, Bobrovsky, etc, but instead they decided to try an win that season and cross that bridge of trying to sign those players that offseason.

Did it work out? Nope, and they are in the middle of a re-build now, but if the re-build is inevitable maybe it's fun to have one last hurrah with the group before it gets torn apart.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

One of the worst proposals in this thread

Since November became December, Mangiapane has 8 points in 19 games. In his breakout campaign, he’s only got 25 points in 41 games.

He’s a nearly 26 year old RFA winger.

Does he have some game? Absolutely.

Is he anything special, or a player to commit dollars and term to?

No. He is not.

He doesn’t play a premium position. He doesn’t produce at a premium level. He isn’t better than Joe Pavelski.

Pavelski helps us right now. Mangiapane might be enough to preclude the inclusion of draft picks, 1sts or otherwise.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Goes hand-in-hand with being a Flames fan for 40 years. They never seem to find a way to maintain control of their own destiny. Everything that should work in their favor they somehow find a way to make it work against them. It's just the way the team is, has been, and likely always will be. Success seems to be a foreign concept to this organization. The only thing worse than Treliving's handing of the current situation was Risebrough's handling of the remnants of the cup team. Risebrough at least had an excuse for his bungling.

I'm not looking to make excuses or BT or any previous GM. But everything that should work in their favor? This won't be a popular thing for folks on here to hear, but your opinion and paddling in the pool of despair as a Flames fan for 40 years completely under values the fact that building a winner in this market is SIGNIFICANTLY harder than many others in the NHL (same as Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Buffalo, Columbs and others).

They Flames have nothing working in their favor at a macro level. For plethora of reasons Calgary is not the most desirable market for players (taxes, weather, etc..), the economics of a small market mean that the team barely breaks even if we don't make the playoffs (despite popular opinion that our owners should just burn their money on the team cause they are rich), and despite the fact fans on this site (likely the most passionate Flames fan) might tolerate a tank full rebuild - the impacts at the gate and revenue, which rely on the more casual fan to show up and spend money once and a while don't allow for it.

Which is why we end up unable to do some of things you might see a team like Tampa do if required to finally build a true cup contender. Again, I'm not saying BT or any previous GM do a perfect job, or even do a good job within the constraints I mentioned above, but I think as a fan of a small market Canadian club, we need to understand that not all things are equal, and building a winner here is going to be infinitely harder than it is in many other spots around the NHL.

Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Buffalo and others are the toughest GM jobs in the NHL.

[Monahammer]

Mike Hoffman vs Andrew Mangiapane- Contract Value comparison

Hoffman:
- 5th round pick for Ottawa in 2009
- winger relying on a hard work, relentless game style, with keen offensive instincts.
D+1: QMJHL 56gp 46g 39A 85P
D+2: AHL 74gp 7g 18a 25p- ELC
D+3: AHL 76gp 21g 28a 49p - First NHL Game - ELC
D+4: AHL 41gp 13g 15a 28points- Assistant captain of AHL team- ELC
D+5: AHL 51 gp 30g 37a 67points- captain of AHL team- League Minimum bridge 660k
D+6: NHL 79 GP 27g 21a 48 points- also had .5 ppg playoffs- league minimum: 750k RFA
D+7: NHL 78 gp 29g 30a 59points - 2 million bridge contract 1 year

Following that season (15-16) he signs a 4 year 20.75 Mil contract (5.1875 aav; 7.11% of cap at the time) with a M-NTC in the final three seasons.

Mangiapane:
- Not drafted in first year eligible. High scoring, dimunitive winger known for relentless pace and in your face style, with offensive flair.
-6th round pick for the flames in 2015
D+1: OHL 68gp 43g 61a 104 points
D+2: OHL 68gp 51g 55a 106 points
D+3: AHL 66gp 20g 21a 41 points -ELC
D+4: AHL 39gp 21g 25a 46 points - First Nhl games (10- no points)- ELC
D+5: NHL 44gp 8g 5a 13 points - ELC
D+6: NHL 68gp 17g 15a 32 points- League minimum 715k RFA
D+7: NHL 56gp 18g 14a 32 points- 2.425 bridge
D+8: NHL 41gp 20g 5a 25 points- 2.425 bridge

Comparison:
- Similar players with similar play styles. Mangiapane may be developing more of a reputation for two way game, but I actually think Hoffman played in a similar way when in Ottawa playing with Mark Stone. His D+8 Season was excellent, as he put up an excellent playoff performance as well.
- Hoffman played in the NHL a year sooner, but Mangiapane showed offensive dominance in the AHL a year earlier comparatively. However, Hoffman was given a leadership role and helped the AHL team advance in the playoffs (value that as you will).
- Total career earnings for each up to last contract opportunity of RFA: Hoffman: $5.44 million Mangiapane: $7.965 Million // Total career earnings to D+8 Season Hoffman: $10.6275 Million (Mangiapane unchanged)
- Mangiapane: .47ppg/ .29gpg NHL, 0.61ppg/0.48gpg contract season // Hoffman (up to contract): .60ppg/ .31gpg NHL, 0.75ppg/0.37gpg contract season

Conclusion:
Up to the signing of their respective final RFA contracts, Mike Hoffman was a slightly superior and more impactful player than Andrew Mangiapane. His contract earnings to that date were also lower than Mangiapane's thus far, so the argument that Mangiapane took a discount last contract is moot.

Hoffman's play earned him 7.11% of the cap, but he had produced over his NHL career as much as Mangiapane is producing this year. He showed offensive consistency at the NHL level that Mangiapane hasn't shown yet.

7.11% of the cap in 2022-2023 (82.5 million)= 5.86575 million.

To me, 5.5 million for 3 or 4 years for Mangiapane is fair and manageable. We can make that cap hit work. No need to trade him yet.

[GreenLantern2814]

^^^What I wouldn’t give for our franchise to run itself the way the Winnipeg Jets do.

Stay out of the news. Scout well. Draft well.

Don’t waste all your cap space every July 1 with free agents even the most casual fan can see are garbage.

When a star(ish) player wants out, trade him for a 1st +.

Don’t hire a new head coach every 18 months - the Jets have been back for 12 years and they’re only just on their third coach.

Treliving on his own has hired five.

It’s impatient Mickey Mouse ####.

[Knut]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Since November became December, Mangiapane has 8 points in 19 games. In his breakout campaign, he’s only got 25 points in 41 games.

He’s a nearly 26 year old RFA winger.

Does he have some game? Absolutely.

Is he anything special, or a player to commit dollars and term to?

No. He is not.

He doesn’t play a premium position. He doesn’t produce at a premium level. He isn’t better than Joe Pavelski.

Pavelski helps us right now. Mangiapane might be enough to preclude the inclusion of draft picks, 1sts or otherwise.

The point is forward depth. Trading a top 6 Forward for another one is not really moving the needle much. It still leads to Pitlick and Ritchie slotting too high up in the lineup.

If you make a move you want one that slots players down. Pavelski pushes Backland and Monahan down a line creating better matchups.

Adding Pavelski and keeping Mangiapane is how you go for it. Not trading one for the other.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Knut

The point is forward depth. Trading a top 6 Forward for another one is not really moving the needle much. It still leads to Pitlick and Ritchie slotting too high up in the lineup.

If you make a move you want one that slots players down. Pavelski pushes Backland and Monahan down a line creating better matchups.

Adding Pavelski and keeping Mangiapane is how you go for it. Not trading one for the other.

It does move the needle when that top-6 forward is a centre, IMO.

If they go into the playoffs with Backlund as the #2C, they will get obliterated, as usual.

[Knut]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

It does move the needle when that top-6 forward is a centre, IMO.

If they go into the playoffs with Backlund as the #2C, they will get obliterated, as usual.

Sure.. But Backlund playing with Pitlick and Ritchie isnt great either.

Spend the first on Pavelski. Spend a 2nd on Jarnkrok and really go all in.

Mangiapane is much better served recouping assets in the offseason if Gaudreau and Tkachuk walk.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

LOL



Mangiapane is not redundant.



That is quite the take.



He is a tremendous producer for a second line role - really hard player to replace. Trading him away because you think he's redundant, is just ridiculous

Will be redundant lol

Unless you think it would be smart paying Johnny, Matt and Andrew 25m+ cap hit for 6+ years?

Not many teams have tried the old let's build around 3 natural LWers approach I suppose

Then you sign Lindholm to 7.5m assuming you want to keep your only RH top 6 C

So 33m or so for those 4 going forward

Yes... redundant

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Knut

Sure.. But Backlund playing with Pitlick and Ritchie isnt great either.

Spend the first on Pavelski. Spend a 2nd on Jarnkrok and really go all in.

Mangiapane is much better served recouping assets in the offseason if Gaudreau and Tkachuk walk.

I’m good with this too - I just don’t understand the people who think Mangiapane is some kind of untouchable.

He isn’t. I said it during the Eichel fiasco, Andrew Mangiapane is the definition of a player you sell high on.

He isn’t a foundational piece. I don’t care how good his World Championship was.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Will be redundant lol

Unless you think it would be smart paying Johnny, Matt and Andrew 25m+ cap hit for 6+ years?

Not many teams have tried the old let's build around 3 natural LWers approach I suppose

Then you sign Lindholm to 7.5m assuming you want to keep your only RH top 6 C

So 33m or so for those 4 going forward

Yes... redundant

33M for a bunch of players they couldn’t build around when they cost $21.25M.

What’s not to love.

[TheoFleury]

I realize as Flames fans we never experience assets being managed properly but it would be the intelligent move to cash in on Andrew if we somehow retain the two LW ahead of him on the depth chart. Pelletier is also coming too

If we lose Johnny, we should trade Andrew and Matt because we won't be making the playoffs anyway

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

33M for a bunch of players they couldn’t build around when they cost $21.25M.



What’s not to love.

That's why Mangiapane is the logical odd man out. We can't afford him. End of story. Unless we lose Johnny. And then we are screwed regardless. Also need cap for Kylington... way more than Mangiapane imo

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

I realize as Flames fans we never experience assets being managed properly but it would be the intelligent move to cash in on Andrew if we somehow retain the two LW ahead of him on the depth chart. Pelletier is also coming too

If we lose Johnny, we should trade Andrew and Matt because we won't be making the playoffs anyway

If Johnny walks on July 1 (and I wouldn’t begrudge him if he did), Lindholm, Tkachuk and Mangiapane should all have new homes before training camp.

Hanifin too.

Lindholm and Tkachuk could for sure return 1sts +, and Mangiapane/Hanifin likely can as well - certainly not less than 2nds ++.

Between those players and a Lucic retirement, you’re opening up nearly $32M in cap space.

Fire Treliving, be a floor team for a few years, and do a proper rebuild.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

That's why Mangiapane is the logical odd man out. We can't afford him. End of story. Unless we lose Johnny. And then we are screwed regardless. Also need cap for Kylington... way more than Mangiapane imo

No, I disagree.

The Flames should absolutely keep Tkachuk, Gaudreau, and Mangiapane because they are all good players and they drive the team forward.

You can’t discard good players because you’re stuck with bad players or paying mediocre ones too much money. The GM has to find a way to offload his makes/under-performers (and better yet, don’t pay them in the first place). If he can’t do that, then he shouldn’t have his job.

The moment we lose one of Tkachuk/Gaudreau/Mangiapane, then we immediately need to replace that player. This team doesn’t have top-six wingers just sitting around waiting to get into the lineup.

Every year we see teams somehow figure out how to manage difficult cap situations without ejecting their best players.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If Johnny walks on July 1 (and I wouldn’t begrudge him if he did), Lindholm, Tkachuk and Mangiapane should all have new homes before training camp.

Hanifin too.

Lindholm and Tkachuk could for sure return 1sts +, and Mangiapane/Hanifin likely can as well - certainly not less than 2nds ++.

Between those players and a Lucic retirement, you’re opening up nearly $32M in cap space.

Fire Treliving, be a floor team for a few years, and do a proper rebuild.

And Tanev and Markstrum

Take contracts back like Arizona . They have 3 firsts and 5 seconds this years draft

I hope JG and MT resign , but if they don’t (and I would say both must) go nuclear and do it right finally . Have a new team ready for the new Arena (insert joke here )