Conservatives introduce mandatory sentencing for 5 marijuana plants

[redforever]

Is it not the intent of this bill to "look the other way" for up to 4 plants?

[3 Justin 3]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Drug addicts and people who are stealing digital media vote? I would think they are to busy finding a reason to say 420 and watching their torrents.

Pot smokers aren't drug addicts. People who give "jobs" for a small amount of Heroin, those are drug addicts.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by 3 Justin 3

Pot smokers aren't drug addicts. People who give "jobs" for a small amount of Heroin, those are drug addicts.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Drug addicts and people who are stealing digital media vote? I would think they are to busy finding a reason to say 420 and watching their torrents.

Yep. That was a dumb comment.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1559391/

Bang frickin on.

The whole 'tough on crime' wedge panders to the stupid and the fearful or both and there's no shortage of them.

Reminds me of the GST cut.

Originally Posted by Shazam

But, yes, it [government spending] ballooned. So did GDP and government revenue.

Yeah, and then GDP and government revenue went down (as always happens eventually), but spending was already up and needed to go higher.

[Shazam]

Yeah, and then GDP and government revenue went down (as always happens eventually), but spending was already up and needed to go higher.

They can raise revenue by taxing the hell out of pot!

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Shazam

They can raise revenue by taxing the hell out of pot!

Though again, if they raise taxes too much on it, there would be no incentive for people to buy it legally, they'd just keep doing what they've always been doing, buying it illegally. If Beer cost $10/can at the liquor store (due to taxes), and your buddy brewed his own for $0.25/can, you'd be buying from him before the store, obviously. There's a cost vs. convenience trade-off, and right now it is verrrry convenient to buy marijuana illegally at the market price. There would be no point to the government legalizing it just to tax it out of a reasonable price bracket.

[Day Tripper]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Yep. That was a dumb comment.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Do you have issues with the government 'controlling' the liquor, caffeine, or sugar you drink? I don't... if anything regulation allows for an explosion in variety and quality.

You're kidding, right?
According to the ALGC website, prior to 1993 privatization of liquor, there were 3325 alcohol products available in all of Alberta. 16 years after privatization, in 2009, there were 16495 products available.

http://aglc.ca/liquor/albertaliquorprivatization.asp

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by bcb

You're kidding, right?
According to the ALGC website, prior to 1993 privatization of liquor, there were 3325 alcohol products available in all of Alberta. 16 years after privatization, in 2009, there were 16495 products available.

http://aglc.ca/liquor/albertaliquorprivatization.asp

I don't think we're on the same page. What I meant was, government regulation (ie LEGALIZATION) will not reduce the quality/variety of marijuana necessarily, as many people seem to be afraid of.

My point was that legalization (what I called regulation) would lead to an explosion in varieties and qualities (or at least, take the what already exists and make it more widely available to everyone).

I don't think the debate is whether or not marijuana will be privately or publicly produced, it's whether or not it will be legalized at all.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Though again, if they raise taxes too much on it, there would be no incentive for people to buy it legally, they'd just keep doing what they've always been doing, buying it illegally. If Beer cost $10/can at the liquor store (due to taxes), and your buddy brewed his own for $0.25/can, you'd be buying from him before the store, obviously. There's a cost vs. convenience trade-off, and right now it is verrrry convenient to buy marijuana illegally at the market price. There would be no point to the government legalizing it just to tax it out of a reasonable price bracket.

Alcohol in Alberta is taxed at something like 110%. I think they could do the same with pot and get away with it.

If pot ever becomes fully legalized, the big tobacco companies will start selling it overnight. Cottage industries won't stand a chance. Oh sure, there'll be little "micro-growers" (maybe), but for the most part it'll be big players that own the vast majority of the market.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Alcohol in Alberta is taxed at something like 110%. I think they could do the same with pot and get away with it.

If pot ever becomes fully legalized, the big tobacco companies will start selling it overnight. Cottage industries won't stand a chance. Oh sure, there'll be little "micro-growers" (maybe), but for the most part it'll be big players that own the vast majority of the market.

Kinda makes you wonder if BIG TOBACCO is thinking "if we can just hang on until this whole cancer/health thing blows over, we'll get back on top selling weed to the suckers".

You just know there is plenty of R&D going on. The Marlboro Man is going to get some dreads.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Alcohol in Alberta is taxed at something like 110%. I think they could do the same with pot and get away with it.

If pot ever becomes fully legalized, the big tobacco companies will start selling it overnight. Cottage industries won't stand a chance. Oh sure, there'll be little "micro-growers" (maybe), but for the most part it'll be big players that own the vast majority of the market.

just like alcohol, but despite Molson and Budweiser dominating the market, there's still thousands of other choices out there for beer. if weed is ever legal it would probably follow the same path

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Alcohol in Alberta is taxed at something like 110%. I think they could do the same with pot and get away with it.

If pot ever becomes fully legalized, the big tobacco companies will start selling it overnight. Cottage industries won't stand a chance. Oh sure, there'll be little "micro-growers" (maybe), but for the most part it'll be big players that own the vast majority of the market.

I see your point, I'm just not sure I agree.

If the government legalized pot and sold it at market rate (lets say $35 for an eighth ounce), and then added 100% tax, bringing it to $70/eighth... where's the incentive for me to buy it legally? Why wouldn't everyone just continue to operate the way they do, growing, selling, and buying illegally, at half the 'legal' price?

The black market for marijuana is already completely developed and chugging right along, and I think it would continue to do so without becoming redundant due to legal weed that can compete along similar pricing structures.

I'm thinking a more likely scenario is a moderate 10-20% tax mark-up, which would probably work. At double the price, there's no reason for people to buy it legally.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I see your point, I'm just not sure I agree.

If the government legalized pot and sold it at market rate (lets say $35 for an eighth ounce), and then added 100% tax, bringing it to $70/eighth... where's the incentive for me to buy it legally? Why wouldn't everyone just continue to operate the way they do, growing, selling, and buying illegally, at half the 'legal' price?

The black market for marijuana is already completely developed and chugging right along, and I think it would continue to do so without becoming redundant due to legal weed that can compete along similar pricing structures.

I'm thinking a more likely scenario is a moderate 10-20% tax mark-up, which would probably work. At double the price, there's no reason for people to buy it legally.

if they legalize it,they just slowly over time keep increasing the taxes till it's where they want it...say over the course on twenty years or something..normally if you take a big increase and spread it out slowly, lots of people don't normaly pay enough attention or they get lazy to actually do anything about it and just go with the flow.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I see your point, I'm just not sure I agree.

If the government legalized pot and sold it at market rate (lets say $35 for an eighth ounce), and then added 100% tax, bringing it to $70/eighth... where's the incentive for me to buy it legally? Why wouldn't everyone just continue to operate the way they do, growing, selling, and buying illegally, at half the 'legal' price?

The black market for marijuana is already completely developed and chugging right along, and I think it would continue to do so without becoming redundant due to legal weed that can compete along similar pricing structures.

I'm thinking a more likely scenario is a moderate 10-20% tax mark-up, which would probably work. At double the price, there's no reason for people to buy it legally.

Legalize it, tax it, set quality control for the companies that grow it and make it. Then go after the dealers that sell it illegally. Use the tax revenue to up investigation and policing aspects for all the other drugs.

Continue to make it illegal for people to sell it to minors.

Create $10,000 minimum fines for people that manufacture, distribute and grow grass without licenses.

The benefits would be improved quality control. Better control of distribution, you can put money towards policy and anti drug education.

Basically tax it and treat it like booze to the point where you can only buy it in liquor stores.

I'm not convinced that legalizing it will really impact organized crime, who will just find a way to make more potent dope, or move their focus onto other markets like Exstacy, coke, crack and crystal meth.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Legalize it, tax it, set quality control for the companies that grow it and make it. Then go after the dealers that sell it illegally. Use the tax revenue to up investigation and policing aspects for all the other drugs.

Don't they already go after dealers that sell it illegally? They seem to be trying, and yet BC produces something like $6 billion/year worth. I don't think the answer is to legalize it, make it expensive, and then continue with the same law enforcement policies they're already doing regarding the growers/dealers.

Create $10,000 minimum fines for people that manufacture, distribute and grow grass without licenses.

I assume you mean on a large scale? There's no reason people shouldn't be able to grow their own, just like they can brew their own beer/wine.

Basically tax it and treat it like booze to the point where you can only buy it in liquor stores.

Sure, but that sort of ignores the current fact that there's a massive existing black market grow/distribution system for pot that doesn't exist for liquor. Growing/dealing pot is already illegal, and efforts to curb it have already failed. Growers/dealers won't stop for any reason other than the demand being reduced, and the demand for illegal weed will only be reduced if legal weed is of similar convenience, price, and quality.

If the government legalized it, regulated it for potency, and ensured the price was similar to the already widely accepted black market price, I think you'd see the illegal growers/dealers go out of business very quickly.

I'm not convinced that legalizing it will really impact organized crime, who will just find a way to make more potent dope, or move their focus onto other markets like Exstacy, coke, crack and crystal meth.

Sure... and gambling, prostitution, and everything else they're already involved in.

It's not the supply of these drugs that makes them a problem, its the demand. If people didn't want to smoke crack, there wouldn't be an illegal supply of it. Because people demand it, organized crime provides it. If the supply of the given substance is legal (and affordable), organized crime doesn't really have room to operate or make a profit.

You want to kill organized crime? Legalize and regulate all drugs and prostitution. For better or worse, you'd take a sizeable chunk out of those organizations this way.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Don't they already go after dealers that sell it illegally? They seem to be trying, and yet BC produces something like $6 billion/year worth. I don't think the answer is to legalize it, make it expensive, and then continue with the same law enforcement policies they're already doing regarding the growers/dealers.

Sure, but then whats the point of legalizing it if your still going to allow it to be something that's uncontrolled. Its still illegal for you to make a living by making a selling booze without being licensed. Personally I have no problems making it legal. But I do have a problem with the idea that it should just become a uncontrolled basement industry. And I really have trouble with people that would make a living selling it or marketing it to minors.

With a non controlled model where you just say that smoking dope is ok, anyone can grow it and sell it to anyone else and we won't go after it, then you really encourage organized crime to get involved, your really encouraging it to be sold to anyone.

If your going to legalize it, you still can't turn a blind eye to a guy who builds a grow op and doesn't submit reports on it, you can't turn a blind eye to someone who decides to make a living on it without A) being controlled based on who he sells to, and B) submitting tax revenue. And C) having no quality control requirements on what is a noxious substance.

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I assume you mean on a large scale? There's no reason people shouldn't be able to grow their own, just like they can brew their own beer/wine.

Sure, on small amounts, but I don't have a right to make booze or cigarettes en mass and sell it. For personal consumption I would have no problems. Where my problem would start are people distributing it to minors, or making undeclared income on it by doing so.

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Sure, but that sort of ignores the current fact that there's a massive existing black market grow/distribution system for pot that doesn't exist for liquor. Growing/dealing pot is already illegal, and efforts to curb it have already failed. Growers/dealers won't stop for any reason other than the demand being reduced, and the demand for illegal weed will only be reduced if legal weed is of similar convenience, price, and quality.

So you enforce it as a commercial crime instead of a criminal crime. If you want to grow and sell pot, then you should require a license and compliance to any rules and regulations that the government deems necessary. It should be treated like Liquor which is a similar substance in that it effects mental state and health. If your going to legalize it then it has to be bought into the light. Treat it like Liquor, tax it appropriately and use those revenues for healthcare, anti drug education, and enforcement against people that try to make it, market it and distribute outside of a prescribed system. People who want it legalized can't have it both ways. Legalization to me means if your caught with personalized amounts on you doesn't mean a trip through the justice system. However distributing and selling it outside of a controllable and survey able commercial system means fines.

Just like dope intoxication needs to be treated the same way as drinking and driving.

At least with this model, it becomes more revenue neutral, yes you still have to have some enforcement, but at least a system with tax revenues and some fine revenues from illegal operations will pay for the system. You would also reduce jail usage.

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

If the government legalized it, regulated it for potency, and ensured the price was similar to the already widely accepted black market price, I think you'd see the illegal growers/dealers go out of business very quickly.

However, don't you think that some genius out there would try to sell strains that are of higher potency then government dope, or would try to undersell the government since they wouldn't pay taxes in an underground market? I think you would see illegal growers and dealers remain and business, and those are the people that you would at least initially try to target. Not the stupid 35 year old with half an ounce in his pocket.

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Sure... and gambling, prostitution, and everything else they're already involved in.

It's not the supply of these drugs that makes them a problem, its the demand. If people didn't want to smoke crack, there wouldn't be an illegal supply of it. Because people demand it, organized crime provides it. If the supply of the given substance is legal (and affordable), organized crime doesn't really have room to operate or make a profit.

You want to kill organized crime? Legalize and regulate all drugs and prostitution. For better or worse, you'd take a sizeable chunk out of those organizations this way.

I really can't subscribe to the legalization of all of it argument, mainly because the harsher drugs cause significant health problems, destroy people both mentally and physically, and even if legalized a person who could buy crystal meth as an example would still eventually become unemployable and would probably have to turn to crime to get his fix.

Personally the people that make money on the misery of human beings by selling these noxious and devastating drugs (not dope) should be treated like they are in China, a bullet to the back of the head and a bullet bill to the family, especially the scum bags who target kids and teens. They are the worst type of parasites who cause human misery wherever they go.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

If the government legalized pot and sold it at market rate (lets say $35 for an eighth ounce), and then added 100% tax, bringing it to $70/eighth... where's the incentive for me to buy it legally? Why wouldn't everyone just continue to operate the way they do, growing, selling, and buying illegally, at half the 'legal' price?

Is that what pot costs now? Funny- it hasn't changed in 25 years since I last... uh... heard about how much it costs.

Anyway- why would the gov't have to sell it for that much? I would think the production costs would be similar to tobacco. Tobacco is taxed somewhere around 200-300%; so tax pot 400%. A 25 pack of joints would cost $20.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Is that what pot costs now? Funny- it hasn't changed in 25 years since I last... uh... heard about how much it costs.

Anyway- why would the gov't have to sell it for that much? I would think the production costs would be similar to tobacco. Tobacco is taxed somewhere around 200-300%; so tax pot 400%. A 25 pack of joints would cost $20.

Interesting that inflation doesn't seem to have affected the price isn't it?

I'll respond to your points when I get a minute Captain... supposed to be working at the moment rather than debating the finer points of weed legislation