UVic SS bans military recruitment on campus

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by llama64

UVic is out of line on this one for sure. This is setting a precedent for banning any organization that the schools administration disagrees with. Who's next? Sony? Haliburton?

Likely a misguided notion that our military is somehow killing innocents. I've found that letting University students decide policy like this is like getting kindergarten kids to plan their lessons. It usually takes about 3 years outside of school for a person to get a real grip on reality.

Yup, there's nothing like a couple sobering lessons from the U of Hard Knocks to temper one's view on things. It's too bad that can't be incorporated into a school's or university's curriculum. It would save a lot of stress and grief. Call it something sexy like Pragmatic Reality versus Unreal Reality, or something like that.

[Bobblehead]

Its a student organization. They are changing the only part of the world they feel they have control over, for better or worse. If this creates as much discussion on campus as it does on here then that is a good thing.

As it is, this is a tempest in a teapot. I'm sure there are recruiting centres near-by and people who are really interested won't have any problem enlisting.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

So there is no medium? If you support the war, you must join the military? Because if you don't, you are a chicken ? Is that the point of that video?

Seems to be.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

People who go to University have llikely never worked a day in their life and are currently living off their parents dime so they can afford to spend time getting high and dreaming about a perfect Earth Utopia. Also its in BC - the draft dodging capital of Canada so who gives a damn (and by damn I mean, well you know).

Wow... this is definitely incorrect, a lot of University students work so that they can... you know... pay for school. You'd be hard pressed to find a lot of studnets who 'likely never worked a day in their life'. Not to say I don't run into that attitude often (especially in the trades)... it's just hilariously wrong. Also, lifting wood/metal is pretty hard, but writing 10,000 word essays is hard too... they're just different kinds of hard.

I do find it peculiar that the Student Union has so much power on provincial goverment property that they can discriminate against a perfectly legal buisness opportunity.

Not sure about UVic, but I believe the U of C student's building (Mac Hall) is owned/operated by the SU, not the U of C... that might explain why the SU has the power to do this at UVic.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

So there is no medium? If you support the war, you must join the military? Because if you don't, you are a chicken ? Is that the point of that video?

No, not necessarily. But if you are a 20-year-old, politically active, physically fit guy who truly and honestly believes in the cause (which apparently now is the truly pathetic "better there than here"), you are a chicken if you don't volunteer.

What are those guys in that video if not chickens? Liars?

[lifer]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFGit_tZDqs

It would have been nice to see an equally arrogant College Republican follow this film maker out to his car and ask him why he's driving a gasoline powered car. Make sure to ask him if he believes in global warming first...that would really get him. What a tool.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

No, not necessarily. But if you are a 20-year-old, politically active, physically fit guy who truly and honestly believes in the cause (which apparently now is the truly pathetic "better there than here"), you are a chicken if you don't volunteer.

What are those guys in that video if not chickens? Liars?

I disagree with that too. You are basically saying yourself that if you believe in the war, and are physically capable of enlisting, you should do it.

I feel guilty for supporting the Afghanistan mission, because I am not over there myself. Is it right to support the war? I don't know, but I still do it anyways, and I am not signing up. No reason why I don't sign up, it's just not the career I want. Apparently, that is a bad thing according to you and the video.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

I disagree with that too. You are basically saying yourself that if you believe in the war, and are physically capable of enlisting, you should do it.

I feel guilty for supporting the Afghanistan mission, because I am not over there myself. Is it right to support the war? I don't know, but I still do it anyways, and I am not signing up. No reason why I don't sign up, it's just not the career I want. Apparently, that is a bad thing according to you and the video.

It's pretty straightforward.

If you believe your life, your family, your country and your way of life are under a direct threat (which is what they said) and you don't do anything about it, you are a coward. Of course you are.

You say you support the Afghan mission -- fair enough. So do I. But you don't support it because you think you are under a threat. I don't know why you do, but it ain't for the bogus reasons the chickenhawks are still making up to excuse this ######ed Iraq invasion.

[MelBridgeman]

The SS has the right to say yay or nay to any orgranization at the job fair, but their bigger responsibility is to serve the interest of the student body - and this decision as simply failed to achieve that goal.

[JohnnyB]

I suppose it's their right, but it's kind of a shame and an insult to an organization that doesn't really deserve it.

Still, for a group that would no doubt criticise the massive recruitment into the military from very poor neighbourhoods and ghettos in the states, there must be some irony in not allowing recruitment in a community of those well educated enough and with enough opportunity to make the enlistment decision knowledgably either.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Personally I don't have any strong convictions one way or another about this story. It the military is dumb enough to think a bunch of university kids, who tend to be left-leaning and feeling their oats, are a prime recruitment target then that's their business. And I doubt these university kids will be hoodwinked by a slick recruiter. So it's pretty much a tempest in a tea cup. The move smacks of poltical grandstanding by the UVic SS however, which is never a good image to project by an organization ... not if that organization wants to be taken seriously.

Universities are very important places for the military to recruit. The majority of officers that are in the military have university degrees. There isn't much military presence anymore in Calgary and if it wasn't for the recruiters at the U of C, I may not have joined.

I'm a little surprised at the decision by Uvic. I believe that the military should be allowed to setup there. But It's probably not that big a deal because there's a lot of military presence around Victoria with Esquimalt right there and then Comox just a couple of hours away.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Rathji

That is a very scary way to explain the difference.

I would be willing to place a wager that per man in uniform, the police forces of North America have been resposible for more 'innocent lives lost' than all the Armed forces of North America have been responsible for in say the last 100 years.

I would also be willing to wager that, given a subjective scale, more "good" had been done by the Armed Forces than by the Police Forces.

Too many year...I'll take that bet. May be close.

[lifer]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

No, not necessarily. But if you are a 20-year-old, politically active, physically fit guy who truly and honestly believes in the cause (which apparently now is the truly pathetic "better there than here"), you are a chicken if you don't volunteer.

What are those guys in that video if not chickens? Liars?

What if they think that they can make a bigger contribution to society through other ways...like getting an education. I bet many of them are hoping to get in to politics so they can effect change that way. You don't know what their motivations are. Also, about half of the people that he asked why they didn't enlist were not in good physical shape. That makes them fat, not chickens or liars. We also don't know how many people he spoke to. I bet there were thousands at that convention, how many did we see? How easy would it be for a Liberal Michael Moore wannabe to edit his film the same way his mentor does. Liberal propaganda is still propaganda. Possibly the worst side effect of Moore's popularity is that everybody thinks that they can make a point using slanted editing and sarcasm.

It is not a black and white issue of "if you support the war and are physically able to go, you are a coward to avoid it". It is a lot more complicated than that. Again, to reiterate a point I was getting at earlier in this thread: if a person says they believe global warming is caused by human activity, shoudl I assume they are lying if they drive gasoline powered cars? I mean, surely they would take public transit, or at least drive a hybrid if they were anything other than insincere, hypocrytical liars.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by lifer

What if they think that they can make a bigger contribution to society through other ways...like getting an education.

I can't think of a better contribution to society than defending freedom from gathering dangers. Can you?

Originally Posted by lifer

I bet many of them are hoping to get in to politics so they can effect change that way.

I'm sure that's the excuse George, Dick, Rush and the rest of the chickenhawks used. Can't blame 'em, I guess, since it worked. They did their patriotic duty by using every excuse in the book to stay out of service and they all went on to get rich and famous.

Originally Posted by lifer

You don't know what their motivations are. Also, about half of the people that he asked why they didn't enlist were not in good physical shape. That makes them fat, not chickens or liars.

Laugh.

"I'm too fat, I'm not a chicken".

Originally Posted by lifer

It is not a black and white issue of "if you support the war and are physically able to go, you are a coward to avoid it".

Yes it is black and white. It's either worth fighting or it isn't. The kids in that video made it pretty clear that it ain't worth their time.

[CaptainCrunch]

I've never believed in the argument that just because you believe in a war or a cause or a situation that you neccessarily have to actively serve in the delivery of it.

When someone says in a debate point that if you have such a strong belief in the war in Iraq or the war in afghanistan you should enlist and go fight in that war to prove your belief. the beauty of a free society and a volunteer military is that you don't have to serve to believe, you can have an opinion and its just as valid whether you serve or not. Calling those kids, and to me they are kids cowards is disparate because you don't know those kids, you don't know if thier medical reasons are real or not. you also don't know how many kids said that they would serve and this film maker cut them out of his film because they went against his argument.

To be honest, I served in two UN peacekeeping deployments, and I didn't serve because I believed in the UN's ability to keep the peace, or I believed that my actions could bring about peace. To be honest, I deployed because I had friends of mine go, and I had loyalty to them, and I had loyalty to the poor smuck that was caught between two warring sides that would slaughter them without thoughts. But I didn't and still don't believe that the UN is an effective counter to war.

Personally the kids in this movie might value thier lives above politics or cause, and you have to respect that to some effect.

There have been politicians who didn't serve in the military and have no concept of what war is really all about and they're more then willing to send young men and woman into thier own personal version of hell. Does that mean that only people who have "bucked up" and served in the military should be allowed to hold office? Or to have any kind of opinion on the war in Iraq or Afghanistan?

I also hold a lot of resentment towards the film maker in this instance and others that actively seek out the most radical opposite of thier own beliefs or the mis-informed or the just plain stupid and then try to paint everyone on one side of the political spectrum with the same brush. Its similar to how some posters on this board jumped all over the post about Liberal's being smarter then Conservatives.

I'm certainly not some gun toting war mongering ######ed hick from Alabama or Regina, but my views are certainly right of center. But at the very least I believe that these young republicans can have an opinion on something, but that dosen't obligate them to lay thier lives on the line.

From a personal point of view, I certainly hope that the military still filters out recruits who join for either one specific purpose, ie I want to fight in Iraq, or who join up just to prove something to thier friends or neighbours. Those make the most dangerous and unrealiable recruits, because they're not committed to anything else but thier own personal crusade.

I had a DI, who was surprisingly was a woman who stood 5 feet tall, and was as mean as the morning sun on a hangover, and she eyed us balefully in my second week of basic and simply stated. "Your not here to prove your intentions to me, or your parents, or your best friend, your here to prove youself to you and nobody else"

But its late and I'm rambling.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

People who go to University have llikely never worked a day in their life and are currently living off their parents dime so they can afford to spend time getting high and dreaming about a perfect Earth Utopia.

LOL. That statement is a good example of what happens when you don't get a post secondary education. Learn from it kids, you don't want to wind up like the above!

As far as U-Vic goes, this is exactly the sort of short sighted, populist, embarrassing decision student governments normally make. I think it is mostly a function of their 1 year mandates. No long term vision, and easily swayed by pressure.

[lifer]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I can't think of a better contribution to society than defending freedom from gathering dangers. Can you?

Certainly. Maybe some of them will be able to develop more accurate or effective weapons. Maybe the effectiveness of those weapons eclipse the contribution that one recruit could make as an enlisted member. Maybe some of them are looking towards a career in intelligence? Better intelligence could have prevented this whole war, right? Maybe some want to work for the department of homeland security. If you think that the only way to help the cause of defending freedom from gathering dangers is to enlist in the military, you are sadly misguided.

I'm sure that's the excuse George, Dick, Rush and the rest of the chickenhawks used. Can't blame 'em, I guess, since it worked. They did their patriotic duty by using every excuse in the book to stay out of service and they all went on to get rich and famous.

Well, if Bush's beliefs truly are what they appear to be, you must be agreeing with my initial point that you challenged above. Do you think that Bush could have effected the world nearly as much as he has if he had enlisted in the military and been killed in action? You can disagree with his beliefs all you want. Most people do. You can't deny that he has managed to influence the world, regardless of what liberal hypocrites want to call him.[/quote]

Laugh.

"I'm too fat, I'm not a chicken".

But I was responding you your post that said this:

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

No, not necessarily. But if you are a 20-year-old, politically active, physically fit guy who truly and honestly believes in the cause (which apparently now is the truly pathetic "better there than here"), you are a chicken if you don't volunteer.

So I'm very confused as to why you're laughing.

Yes it is black and white. It's either worth fighting or it isn't. The kids in that video made it pretty clear that it ain't worth their time.

Indeed. Which means they either have other beliefs that they hold higher than their belief in the war. It is possible for a person to believe in more than one thing at once. Enlisting in the military and going to Iraq kind of limits the number of other issues a person can tackle. Maybe they don't have higher beliefs, but they believe they can fight the dangers that they percieve more effectively in different ways, as I've outlined above. It just isn't black and white. I'm sorry if that makes it harder to insult people that you know very, very little about though.

[vicphoenix13]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

People who go to University have llikely never worked a day in their life and are currently living off their parents dime so they can afford to spend time getting high and dreaming about a perfect Earth Utopia. Also its in BC - the draft dodging capital of Canada so who gives a damn (and by damn I mean, well you know).

Hopefully the Canadian Miliatry will rent a place just off campus to skirt the SU.

I do find it peculiar that the Student Union has so much power on provincial goverment property that they can discriminate against a perfectly legal buisness opportunity.

MYK

You do realize that draft dodgers in B.C. are expatriate Americans who fled to Canada during the Vietnam War.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by vicphoenix13

You do realize that draft dodgers in B.C. are expatriate Americans who fled to Canada during the Vietnam War.

Which also makes it less likely that their offspring who might be going to UVIC would sign up.

[vicphoenix13]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Which also makes it less likely that their offspring who might be going to UVIC would sign up.

Well, alot of the Vietnam War draft dodgers live in the Okanagan and the Kootenays. Of the 400,000 people that live in Victoria, I don't think many of them are draft dodgers because of demographics. It takes alot more money to live in Victoria as compared to the interior of BC.