Kobe Bryant BETTER than Michael Jordan?

[jeffdsilva]

I think Steve Nash is great, but isn't Kobe something like 5 years younger than Nash, Kobe at 28 probably hasn't peaked in terms of potential and that's what's scary.

[FanIn80]

Someone else said it best: Kobe should be compared to Pippen, not Jordan.

[Monkey_Fracas]

Stray Bullet: You're right, Nash wasn't double teamed on that layup. Because no team would dare double team Nash with Phoenix's options on the floor.

You double Nash, he'll make that huge pass.
You isolate him, he can blow by you.
You leave him open, he shoots 53% from the field, 47% 3's.
You foul him, hes a 88-90% free throw shooter.

You can't guard him.

And you can't be serious thinking that Kobe would excel in Phoenix with that team as is. You think adding a volume shooter in place of a pass-first PG works well? Maybe you should be GM of the Nuggets.

[Monkey_Fracas]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Someone else said it best: Kobe should be compared to Pippen, not Jordan.

Kobe should definately not be compared to Pippen IMO. Skill wise he's closer to Jordan. There are just too many intangibles with Jordan that Kobe doesn't have or exemplify.

If I were to pick a player right now that could come anywhere near Jordan as a complete package it would be Dwayne Wade.

[StrayBullet]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Fracas

Stray Bullet: You're right, Nash wasn't double teamed on that layup. Because no team would dare double team Nash with Phoenix's options on the floor.

You double Nash, he'll make that huge pass.
You isolate him, he can blow by you.
You leave him open, he shoots 53% from the field, 47% 3's.
You foul him, hes a 88-90% free throw shooter.

You can't guard him.

And you can't be serious thinking that Kobe would excel in Phoenix with that team as is. You think adding a volume shooter in place of a pass-first PG works well? Maybe you should be GM of the Nuggets.

Exactly. You don't double team him becuase he has 4 other scoring threats! (Again proving my point that Phoenix is stacked and far superior to the Lakers) The game (Dallas v. Phoenix) that we're referring to, Jason Terry was guarding Nash. Now, I will admit that JT Money has stepped up his defense since Arizona, (where he was horrible) in Atlanta (and he didn't do anything but score) and especially during the beginning of his tenure in Dallas (Tony Parker would own him). Don Nelson has instilled a defensive mind into JT. But, he ain't Gary Payton in 1995. He's not even a better defensive PG than Gilbert Arenas. Let's face it, Nash walked, not drove or crossed him over, but walked by him.
IF you actually watch basketball, you'd see that Kobe has changed his game. Everyone is convinced that he takes 40 shots a game. Obviously, no one's watching. The concept with Phil and Kobe has been simple the last two seasons: Get everyone involved early and get yours later in the game. It's like that EVERY game. AGAIN, the lack of talent on the roster does not show up on the scoreboard. You have Smush taking ill-advised, long jumpers...Jordan Farmar and Sasha Vujacic jacking 3's from everywhere like it's a summer league game and Andrew Bynum (Who WILL be a great player in a few years) who is 19 and not quite polished. Kobe is giving them the ball to establish themselves in the game. Everyone who thinks they know basketball because they watch half a Raptors game and check highlights on the Score whenever it's on, yourself included, are convinced that Kobe is, "a volume shooter" and a selfish teammate. The consecutive games of 50+ points were because Phil was forcing....yes, FORCING Kobe to stop passing the ball and start shooting!!!

AND... I would love to be GM of the Nuggets. I would trade Nene and his ridiculous contract for a couple of expiring contracts. Keep K-Mart and limit his PT to keep him healthy in hopes of some big numbers hoping to trade him and his contract. Keep Steve Blake at PG and Iverson at the 2 spot. JR Smith is a keeper. Najera and Demarr Johnson are gone. And see what happens in the free agent market.

[StrayBullet]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Fracas

Kobe should definately not be compared to Pippen IMO. Skill wise he's closer to Jordan. There are just too many intangibles with Jordan that Kobe doesn't have or exemplify.

If I were to pick a player right now that could come anywhere near Jordan as a complete package it would be Dwayne Wade.

The whole issue was brought up by Jemele Hill because people have forgotten that Kobe IS absolutely the closest to Michael. He's not there... I don't know if he will, but he is the closest. The game. The drive. The killer instinct. The swagger. The iness. The celebrity status. Everything. The jury is still out. It was intended to bring up the argument again because the comparisons to Michael with Wade, LeBron, Vince... those were all pre-mature and out of spite to Kobe.

Read the article.

[socalwingfan]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Fracas

If I were to pick a player right now that could come anywhere near Jordan as a complete package it would be Dwayne Wade.

I think Mark Cuban summed up Wade the best:

" I know Shaq appreciates your leadership as well. He called out your team a few weeks ago saying it was “embarassing’. Great leadership DWade. Your coach sat players for being fat. I guess you couldnt lead them away from the buffet.
You are an amazing player Dwayne. I love watching you shoot free throws."

[Monkey_Fracas]

Don't get me wrong, I like Kobe Bryant. However, in the matter of Nash vs. Bryant, as of this moment I would take Nash. In a year or two everything could change. There just isn't anyone in the league like Nash at all. Mcgrady,Wade,Lebron,Carter,Iverson are all lethal scoring options at SG. However, what pg is versatile and deadly as Nash? Kidd comes close, but he's nowhere near the shooter Nash is.

Maybe you misunderstood me. Do you think Bryant would excel in Phoenix when he takes 22-30 shots a game? He leads the league in shots attempted, and IIRC led the league last season as well. My Nuggets comment was that Iverson hasn't exactly worked as well as hoped in Denver, and they might have been better off with Miller. Adding Kobe in place of Nash is much the same thing as Iverson-Miller. The chemistry would be shot and there wouldn't be enough looks to go around, or an engine to make it all run.

[flames_1987]

With the topic that's started comparing Kobe to Nash, I think it's a pretty tough argument to have. It's obvious why lots of people say Nash, he's canadian, he's sefless on and off the court to go along with being on such an exciting team. Kobe on the other hand has not been a favorite to many people due to his ego and the whole Phil Jackson/Shaq/Kobe triangle.

I view at as there both great players but in different ways. Kobe just has such sick athletic skill that he can just take over any game at any time. I don't like the guy myself, but he's just sooo freaking talented. However his job on the court compared to Nash's are just completley different. I don't like to act like I'm an expert on basketball as I don't follow it enough to know everything, but in the end all I can say is there both amazing basketball players and for much different reasons.

[StrayBullet]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Fracas

Maybe you misunderstood me. Do you think Bryant would excel in Phoenix when he takes 22-30 shots a game? He leads the league in shots attempted, and IIRC led the league last season as well. My Nuggets comment was that Iverson hasn't exactly worked as well as hoped in Denver, and they might have been better off with Miller. Adding Kobe in place of Nash is much the same thing as Iverson-Miller. The chemistry would be shot and there wouldn't be enough looks to go around, or an engine to make it all run.

Of course Kobe would excel in Phoenix. He'd have better teammates to pass to. Do you have any idea why he takes 20 shots per game? ...because his teammates are ineffiecent. And you obviously aren't reading what I've been saying... KOBE HAS CHANGED HIS GAME. Perhaps watching a couple of Lakers' games will do you some good. Or better yet, even though the Lakers lost last year, watch the first round series between The Suns and The Lakers...

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by StrayBullet

Of course Kobe would excel in Phoenix. He'd have better teammates to pass to. Do you have any idea why he takes 20 shots per game? ...because his teammates are ineffiecent. And you obviously aren't reading what I've been saying... KOBE HAS CHANGED HIS GAME. Perhaps watching a couple of Lakers' games will do you some good. Or better yet, even though the Lakers lost last year, watch the first round series between The Suns and The Lakers...

I think you're underestimating the concept of a pass.

There's a large distinction between passing the ball and creating a look. Nash sees things on the court that are unlike anyone else in the game. He has the ability to create looks that are so open, it's like there isn't even another team playing against him.

I'd argue that Nash would give each and every one of the current Lakers a career season - much like he's done with countless players in Phx.

I know you think Raja Bell and Boris Diaw were just a couple of ninja-superstars waiting to get their break, but the reality is they were nothing more than a couple of names on a draft list until they found themselves on the receiving ends of passes from Nash that left them so wide open, they might as well be lining up for a free throw.

I'll never understand why people refuse to acknowledge the effect Nash has on a team. Especially after the last SEVEN seasons of NBA ball have seen an offense run by Nash lead the entire league in scoring.

I get it when people say that Gretzky got 200 points a season because he had Messier, Kurri, Anderson, Coffey to pass the puck to.

I don't get it when people say that Nash is nothing more than a product of the people he plays with. I would understand if he'd played with the same people every year... but he's had a completely different lineup to work with 6 times during his 7 season streak of leading the league in team scoring. It's not like any of them were on the same level as a Messier or Kurri, either. I mean, it's not like Nash played with the Dirk of today... he didn't have a Vince or a Kobe... he didn't even have a Pippen. He's had misfit after misfit, and he STILL gets the job done.

The Suns would TANK without Nash - just like how they went 15-0 and 17-0 with him in the lineup and then went 2-6 without him. The team is literally BUILT around him.

I still firmly believe that the Lakers would finish higher with Nash instead of Kobe, and the Suns would finish lower with Kobe instead of Nash.

For as much as you're acusing people of not watching basketball (just because they disagree with you), I'm really getting the sense that you haven't even seen Nash play (except for the games against the Lakers). The pass this guy makes are just insane. I have no clue how he sees those openings, and I promise that Kobe doesn't have a clue either.

[socalwingfan]

^ Well said, I agree with everything you said there except this quote: "I'd argue that Nash would give each and every one of the current Lakers a career season - much like he's done with countless players in Phx."

You are giving too much credit to the scrubs on the Lakers, Kwame Brown would actually be worse because he can't receive a pass to save his life. I have nothing but respect for Nash, there's a reason he's 2 time (probably 3) time MVP, but even Jesus himself couldn't make Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Brian Cook look like basketball players.

[FlamesFanInEdm]

Nash could probably make Brian Cook more of a player than he is, and Luke Walton would be better but there is no saving Kwame Brown or Smush. I just couldnt see the Lakers doing much better than they currently do with the addition of Nash and subtraction of Bryant. There wouldnt be enough scoring and their best defender would be gone. I think Nash deserves the praise he gets but I think you (FanIn 80) are selling Kobe a bit short. There is no way the Suns would tank if you substituted Kobe for Nash. Diaw is a good enough creater in his own right, doesnt need Nash to make things happen. Barbosa is a capable ballhandler and Kobe would only make them more dangerous. Even though he doesnt have the incredible vision Nash does, his game has changed. He is the closest thing we've seen to Jordan since Jordan.
________
Civic (eighth generation)

[flames_1987]

In terms of the Lakers, I would love to see Turiaf actually get to play more over Bynum, Brown, Radmanovic. The fact that Kwame makes almost 9 million while Turiaf makes just over half a million, makes me dislike Brown even more.

[FanIn80]

Err... Yeah, actually that's a pretty good point. I do tend to forget exactly how inept some of the Lakers are... Nash probably wouldn't be able to do anything at all for Smush and Brown.

I just thought of something, though. Imagine Kobe's stats if he was able to play with Nash... that would be crazy.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by StrayBullet

No one calls him "Starbury" anymore.

Even he calls himself Starbury. The guy uses his own gloss.

[socalwingfan]

To take this completely off-topic, I know most people dislike Marbury, but I have a lot of respect for this:

the premier item in the Starbury line of shoes and apparel is the Starbury One basketball shoe. The shoes retail for only $14.98, but Marbury claims that the Starbury One basketball shoes are the same as the most expensive shoes on the market.
Whether people are buying the shoes because of their quality; because of the Marbury name; or because they're tired of spending a what Marbury says for many is a "week's worth of groceries" on celebrity sneakers is unclear -- but they are buying them.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by socalwingfan

To take this completely off-topic, I know most people dislike Marbury, but I have a lot of respect for this:

the premier item in the Starbury line of shoes and apparel is the Starbury One basketball shoe. The shoes retail for only $14.98, but Marbury claims that the Starbury One basketball shoes are the same as the most expensive shoes on the market.
Whether people are buying the shoes because of their quality; because of the Marbury name; or because they're tired of spending a what Marbury says for many is a "week's worth of groceries" on celebrity sneakers is unclear -- but they are buying them.

He wears a pair of those for all of his games too, to show that the quality is the same.
Never like Marbury before, but this definitely gets some respect from me.

Also, apparently he and LeBron got into a war of words over their respective shoes...

[SebC]

Originally Posted by StrayBullet

Steve Nash is NOT better than Kobe Bryant.

Yes, yes he is.

Edit: I see that's what the next three pages are all about. So the Suns without Nash are better than the Lakers without Bryant. Boo-hoo. The reason for the is Bryant himself. The best basketball team of this decade fell apart because of his actions and his attitude.

[socalwingfan]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

In terms of the Lakers, I would love to see Turiaf actually get to play more over Bynum, Brown, Radmanovic. The fact that Kwame makes almost 9 million while Turiaf makes just over half a million, makes me dislike Brown even more.

Turiaf with a beautiful block on Yao in tonight's game - he's been doing a great job on D giving up so much in height!!! Why he doesn't get more playing time is a mystery to me - I don't get Phil's intense dislike of giving young guys playing time.

edit: and now 2 more huge blocks to get the crowd back into the game!!!