NHL Team Playoff Success In the Salary Cap Era

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by CASe333

This is exactly the hyperbole I am talking about. No one is saying that.

My point is that really only cups matter. If you want to take into account playoff series wins then take into account regular season too.

Funny thing is I still agree Calgary is bottom half and as fans we shoudn't find that acceptable. I just tried to point out we are not bottom 5 by any metric whether it takes into account cups wins or a more accumulative approach that takes the regular season into account.

Is that going to help our case?

1st in the NW Division once in it's 14 year existence (4-5 teams) = 3 seed
1st in Western Conference and therefore 1st in Pacific Division once in it's 7-8 year existence. = 1 seed

Those are the only two times we've had home ice advantage in the playoffs.

[flames_fan_down_under]

I would imagine by almost every single metric the Flames are a decidedly below average NHL team.

Some get upset because they view the team as mediocre, not terrible, while in terms of playoff success this team is in fact very bad.

Seems like we have achieved singularity when we have fans arguing over whether the team is terrible or just slightly terrible.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Ped

I can't believe people appear to be arguing seriously that playoff success is not a meaningful indicator of franchise success.

Well, we haven’t heard from JayProbable or JayLikely

[Britflamesfan]

The Flames organization needs to be very careful, they have survived this awful period because of their 2004 run, but that is starting to wear thin. I can remember the half empty Dome in 2001 and the ticket drive to get to 14000 season ticket holders or the team was off. Peaople are starting to lose interest which quite frankly is not surprising considering the cost to see games. To make matters worse not only has the team not been winning but the hockey is dire to watch. There is no excuse for the team being as bad as it has been, they have spent to the cap and got nothing for it. That can only lead to one conclusion and that is management is very poor and yet we trundle on, having another go. If this was a Premiere League football team the GM would have been gone 5 years ago. You have to give NHL GMs longer because of the draft system but in reality our GM should have been sacked 2/3 years ago.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ I walked straight in to the dome during a game in maybe 1999 or 2000 without tickets, between the first and second, because I was late, thought I may get tix outside for a song, but the scalpers and door minders were gone, security was quite a bit less than it is now, and the material business was done for the night. Blew my mind, just walking in impeded into a NHL rink mid game

That’s how dire things were

Since then I have had seasons tix for many seasons, saw interest in the team rise and fall, after years eventually dropped them, and the world has changed. Now there is a lot more structure around managing crowd assembly that prohibits that situation from occurring again, but by and large the good will from 2004 is finally reduced to pretty much nothing

Lots of additional security staff going through the motions. Kind of like the Flames last season

[Britflamesfan]

^ Its sad really and its now so long ago that many people forget the dire straights the team was in. It will get there again unless the owners get a grip of the situation and quickly. It costs far to much to be going to see poor quality hockey most nights from a bunch who on many occasions do not seem to give a damn. How can you come out time after time not ready to play and no its not just on the coach, a professional player with the will to win should be coming out fired up to play and win.

Not enough of our players are prepared to do whatever it takes to win, anybody whom disappears in the playoffs needs moving on.

The Owners have now put themselves in a very difficult position with the new arena coming along. They need to blow the team up, yet need to be competitive in 3 years time to try and fill the new arena. There fault completely as the cards were on the wall two years ago that the teams core was not going to get us anywhere close to the cup. If they had bitten the bullet then, we could have got some really good pieces for Geo, Brody, JG and our now hopeless no1 centre who has disappeared injured again. £ years time and the team could have been looking to get good and create some excitement. Truly an awfully manged and owned team.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by CASe333

When you take into account season ranking and playoff series wins I am very confident Calgary is not in the bottom 5 of the league since year 2000 or whatever years you want to cherry pick. Looking at the article you quoted Toronto and Carolina do not even come close to moving past Calgary given their (imo dumb) metrics. Meanwhile using their metrics Detroit falls fast. Calgary probably drops to 22-23 range with that particular metric (they takes into account personnel trophies??)

Columbus, Florida, Edmonton, Winnipeg(Atlanta), Phoenix, and Buffalo all rank well below Calgary's success for the last 20 years pretty much no matter what metric you use.

Looking back at Jay Random's argument he is not trying to say Calgary has been a good franchise or even better than mediocre. The argument I keep seeing lately is Calgary "is one of the worst" or a "terrible" nhl franchise and I think he is just pointing out by all available metrics we are below average but no where near the worst. Calgary has enjoyed similar success as Toronto but unlike Toronto they have won a cup in the last 40 years. None of the Canadian teams really should be happy with the trajectory of their franchises for the last 30 years (except maybe Montreal since they have at least won in the last 30 years and just went to the Finals).

Anyways I am just tired of the hyperbole. We all should demand better but fans don't need to overreact to media rumours or exaggerate how bad things have been. I think we all want the same end result so no point in hyperbole.

Cross-posted from the trade thread b/c it makes sense here:

ARI - no real argument...they suck

CBJ - no real argument overall...Though they are a 2000 expansion team. Since 2013 they made playoffs 5/8 times, including a sweep of the Pres Trophy winner and 12 total playoff games won. - Flames are 4/8 playoffs with 1 series win and 8 total playoff wins.

FLA - no real argument...though they are a '93 expansion team and have the same number of cinderella runs and only 1 fewer playoff series win overall. Their current outlook seems brighter than here.

EDM - there are myriad reasons why their woeful success is more hilarious and inexcusable compared to CGY, but ultimately the actual counts of cinderella runs, series wins, and playoffs made are nearly identical.

BUF - a decade of utter futility, but a Pres Trophy, back to back Conf. Finals (incl. one game 7), and going back a bit further to the late 90s more series wins, including an SCF and ECF. Since '95 they've had a 5 year span of legit contention, and then 2 more years coming out of the lockout. Of those 7 years of most hope, they only lost in the first rd once. They actually contended while we've only pretended.

ATL/WPG - 11 years of crap after expanding in '99. Obviously our Iggy/Kipper years were far superior. But, since '14-15, they are 5/8 playoffs, including the last 4 straight. ECF and a sweep of the Oilers (probably more delicious than anything we've done since '04). 3 series wins and 15 games won. Flames are 4/8 playoffs with 1 series win and 8 total playoff wins...but it's a much uglier comparison if we look at the last 4-6 years. Their future still looks brighter.


So I'd say there is hardly any argument with ARI, expansion CBJ, or expansion FLA. But the other 3 are closer to a tossup (unless you really value seasons of being poor-mediocre over abysmal).

[Erick Estrada]

I'm sure this thread will go a few more pages of arguing but the record speaks for itself and there's just no way to sugarcoat the futility. The worst thing for me is that like the Leafs the owners have not spared expenses and it's madness that with all the resources given to various Flames GM's that the results have been so abysmal. It's not a curse or bad luck as ownership has simply failed to identify the right people to run the organization. Edwards and company have nobody to blame except themselves.

[calumniate]

It's the cdn tax.. there should be repatriations going north of the border due to tax laws. It's insurmountable at this point

[Igottago]

I love this graph. Should be a permanent post at the top of the forum, because there are seemingly a lot of people who gloss over how bad this organization has been over the decades, and I think people are often too patient with the results (or lack of) from year to year. I think this fanbase is just used to poor results and the bottom section of the graph is just the normal dwelling place for us as fans.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I love this graph. Should be a permanent post at the top of the forum, because there are seemingly a lot of people who gloss over how bad this organization has been over the decades, and I think people are often too patient with the results (or lack of) from year to year. I think this fanbase is just used to poor results and the bottom section of the graph is just the normal dwelling place for us as fans.

Too patient for whom?

idk if how patient you are or not matters to anything outside of your own happiness and enjoyment of the game.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I love this graph. Should be a permanent post at the top of the forum, because there are seemingly a lot of people who gloss over how bad this organization has been over the decades, and I think people are often too patient with the results (or lack of) from year to year. I think this fanbase is just used to poor results and the bottom section of the graph is just the normal dwelling place for us as fans.

I think you are mistaking patience for people choosing to enjoy following their team instead of wallowing in constant negativity and complaining.

Everyone on here knows that the Flames are one of the worst performing organizations by most measures.

But I choose to enter each season with renewed hope and excitement because this is supposed to be fun.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think you are mistaking patience for people choosing to enjoy following their team instead of wallowing in constant negativity and complaining.

Everyone on here knows that the Flames are one of the worst performing organizations by most measures.

But I choose to enter each season with renewed hope and excitement because this is supposed to be fun.

Yeah, to me the fact Calgary has been crappy for a long time is neither here nor there. My interest is whether they will be good in the near future. The Pens came into the league in 1967-68. They won a total of 4 PO rounds in 4 different years from then until 90-91. Detroit was a laughing stock all while I was growing up. It’s taken until now for the Isles to regain any respectability since shortly after their dynasty.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think you are mistaking patience for people choosing to enjoy following their team instead of wallowing in constant negativity and complaining.

Everyone on here knows that the Flames are one of the worst performing organizations by most measures.

But I choose to enter each season with renewed hope and excitement because this is supposed to be fun.

Every year I’m always excited and have hope for the up and coming season. You just never know who will break out or have a big year. Dube or Valimaki breakout this team could be good. Tkachuk Johnny markstrom play like they have in the in the past you never know

But there is almost nothing wrong with wanting more. If this team rebuilt sure it will be painful in ways but it can also create excitement too. Even if the team sucked but Wright was a rookie on the flames and putting up big numbers. I’m sure that would be exciting seeing that happen here for once. The pens haven’t always been a power house but watching Mario to Jagr to Sid must be some fun to watch over the years

Also debating and complaining about this team is entertaining too. I’m sure it’s why some on here every day posting their opinion

I also love watching every game right from the get go but nobody can honestly say it’s not so much more fun when the entire city is buzzing because the flames actually play a game past the first round. Why not just a few more 2nd or 3rd round appearances more than once every 15 years. It’s not a huge ask

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think you are mistaking patience for people choosing to enjoy following their team instead of wallowing in constant negativity and complaining.

Everyone on here knows that the Flames are one of the worst performing organizations by most measures.

But I choose to enter each season with renewed hope and excitement because this is supposed to be fun.

I turn 40 this year. I've definitely gotten grumpier, as I am becoming more aware of the alarmingly high possibility that my greatest flame memory will be from when I was 7 years old, and something that I will not be able to see again in this life time, given how the franchise has operated over the last ~30 years...

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Flames as an organization stopped trying to win a cup ages ago. The target every season is to try to get at least 2 home playoff games. Anything beyond that is just gravy.

Even this offseason, everyone knows this team is best average, but they're happy to ensure that they are getting a fighting chance for a low seed playoff spot. That's it. That's the goal of the franchise.

I agree with this. Flames ownership's onus is ultimately fan engagement. And how do you continue fan engagement? You give them "hope" that every year they can make the playoffs and get a chance to win it all. But the fight to get into the playoffs for owners is just as important as winning the playoffs. In fact, there's an argument to made that bubble teams might garner more fan engagement than a perennial contender during the regular season, as there are a ton of discussion and interest on standings, player movement, will they be buyers or sellers, etc. There's a lot of hand wringing in 4 point losses, and a lot of adulation in 4 point wins.

Is there a risk that fan engagement will dip if the team continues the same song and dance? Sure, but I would argue up to this point, that hasn't happened drastically enough for them to deviate from their current model.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I turn 40 this year. I've definitely gotten grumpier, as I am becoming more aware of the alarmingly high possibility that my greatest flame memory will be from when I was 7 years old, and something that I will not be able to see again in this life time, given how the franchise has operated over the last ~30 years...

Agreed. I’m 43 this year and watching the flames lose first round the first few years after they won the cup was heart breaking because they still had a great team. Since they fell apart it just feels like we never have a sniff. 30 years is a long time to be watching every game that was on tv back in the day to every game every season for the last 10 or so years to say you have only watched this team get close once.

[Bingo]

What I find interesting is the grouping of Canadian teams in the bottom half. Without Montreal's run this year they'd all be in the bottom 14 teams.

I wonder how much a rabid fan base plays a role in teams making poor decisions in how to manage assets and their future.

When really the opposite is true ... Canadian fans are likely astute enough to appreciate a rebuild more than a non traditional market.

[Jason14h]

Canadian teams hire ex Canadian hockey players and old
Boys club members .

They get killed because other franchises hire better , draft better , develop better and take more long term risks

Also - the fact all Canadian teams are meh doesn’t put the extra pressure of them to improve

How many times have we read on this board “would you rather be the Oil”

[The Yen Man]

If the Flames had a solid rebuild plan where they aren't selling off futures for overpriced post apex players, I'd be willing to support the team during the rebuilding years. What you don't want though is an Arizona, Buffalo, Oilers (without lucking into McDavid) or Panthers (until last year really) type of rebuild, where they just perennially suck every year with no end in sight.