City Ok's Crowchild Expansion

[Resolute 14]

I agree.

The City can't just dump all of it's money into roads. We do have to maintian our civic attractions as well. Spending $100 million on stuff Calgarians want to visit doesnt invalidate the need for more funding for roads and transportation.

[Thunderball]

Am I the only one who liked the idea of $100m going to attractions, but hated which attractions got money and how much money they got?

I mean, $40 million for a LIBRARY!?!? come on!

$25 million should've been put into McMahon Stadium to have a partial roof, grass or fieldturf, better seating and concessions. (FYI we lost the bid to the 2007 FIFA U-20 World Cup cause of this)

Significant funding should have also gone into Burns/Foothills Park to make it more like Telus Field and less of a hole, say $10 million.

Say $10 million to the zoo, $10m to the science centre and $10 million for a library.

$5 million each to Fort Calgary and Heritage Park.

$5 million into any upgrades Jack Singer and Glenbow may need

And put the rest ($20 million) towards LRT or Roads like it was intended.

But no, lets blow it on a library....

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally posted by Eagle Eye+Apr 26 2005, 02:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Eagle Eye @ Apr 26 2005, 02:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Reaper@Apr 26 2005, 01:33 PM
Well, apparently I'm a dirty, rotten liar.

The underground proposal for the Calgary LRT was canned due to budgetary constraints.

Originally, Calgary Transit had planned on building the C-Train system in a subway format where the trains would run underground underneath 8th Avenue SW/SE instead of above ground on 7th Avenue. In 1980, the new City Hall municipal building was voted by Calgarians to be built on already existing government owned land instead of leasing office space from private businesses. Design of the new 14-storey municipal building included a parkade to be built underground, including at the time, a subway for the LRT system to be constructed. Unfortunately because the LRT system was already $23.3-million over budget, underground LRT in Calgary was put to a halt and all that was ever built was the shell of the tunnel.

A link:

http://www.barp.ca/bus/lrt/calgary/anderson.htmlhttp://www.barp.ca/bus/lrt/calgary/anderson.html

I have heard that the underground LRT is still an option in the future as there would be too many trains coming downtown when the complete system is up and running in the next 30 years. I have heard a rumour that there is a shell of a station built under Bankers Hall, and that the new building where Cowboys is currently will have the same thing (maybe they are making the private sector pay for most of the upgrades as newer buildings are built). I can't remember where I heard this rumour, but I am sure that someone will straighten me out. [/b][/quote]
Underground LRT may happen, but I will give you a good reason why it probably wont.

Coring is EXTREMELY expensive.

To build a tunnel of that size would cost a fortune, and would probably raise taxes....

The NW leg was the most expense of the 3 legs to build just because of that reason. The coring between Lions Park and Banff Trail and coring between Banff Trail and University was a lot of money for the city to cough up when it was being built.

[the_only_turek_fan]

In regards to the tunnel. The idea now is that each building that is built along that line (8th ave) has considerations at the underground level for future LRT. So when enough new buildings have been built it is only a matter of connecting the sections/stations of the new buildings. That is why that Penny Lane high rise proposal was so significant, it would be the furthest west section in the future LRT line, or in other words it would eventually be the hub for the future 'Penny Lane' station. As far as i know City Hall, the Convention Centre, Bankers Hall, and Penny Lane would all be ready to go, we just need 2-3 more stops west of that and then connections and track and stations and access and so on and you are ready to go! bigyellowgrin.gif

How in the world is this going to work?

The current LRT line runs along 7th Ave.

If there are a lot of buildings built along 8th avenue they are going to have stations along 8th and have the train going north one block to 7th ave?

That makes no sense to me one bit.

Am I missing something here?

[habernac]

fata 'em, I'll keep riding my bike to work while people shoehorn themselves on trains that have been too full for more than a decade.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally posted by Thunderball@Apr 26 2005, 09:12 PM
Am I the only one who liked the idea of $100m going to attractions, but hated which attractions got money and how much money they got?

I mean, $40 million for a LIBRARY!?!? come on!

$25 million should've been put into McMahon Stadium to have a partial roof, grass or fieldturf, better seating and concessions. (FYI we lost the bid to the 2007 FIFA U-20 World Cup cause of this)

Significant funding should have also gone into Burns/Foothills Park to make it more like Telus Field and less of a hole, say $10 million.

Say $10 million to the zoo, $10m to the science centre and $10 million for a library.

$5 million each to Fort Calgary and Heritage Park.

$5 million into any upgrades Jack Singer and Glenbow may need

And put the rest ($20 million) towards LRT or Roads like it was intended.

But no, lets blow it on a library....

Personally, I would like to have seen something "new" introduced into the mix rather than gussie up some of the older ones, like Heritage Park which to me anyways, have a limited appeal. I'm OK with the family and education oriented things like the zoo - anyone who's been to the Ontario Science Center knows how interesting that can be for all ages. (I still remember their Science of Sport exhibit, hella cool...) Am I the only one old enough to remember the "Energium" that the ERCB had on? I used to love playing that drilling game...

$40 million sounds like a lot but to build a large building (twice the size of the existing dump downtown), equip it with books and materials, and give it a dash of design (unless you're from the Moon School of Design ), $40M is really not that out of the realm.

Rather than money go into the facilities of pro sports, for which the majority of people in the city derive no direct benefit, I'd prefer to see it directed towards things like Lindsey Park, and the Calgary Indoor Soccer Center. Ask any parent how big soccer is now, and how ridiculously insufficient the existing facilities are.

I've heard an unconfirmed rumour the Science Center land has been sold, and would be relocating to the East Village under Bronco's plan.

[Muta]

Originally posted by I-Hate-Hulse@Apr 26 2005, 10:13 PM

I've heard an unconfirmed rumour the Science Center land has been sold, and would be relocating to the East Village under Bronco's plan.

You are correct. Although the Science Centre will not be in the east village.... there is a plot of land north of the zoo next to Deerfoot where the new one will go. It will be twice as large as the existing one, with room for further expansion in the future.

Oh, and the Science Centre will be announcing something huge tomorrow at 11:00 am. Watch the news tomorrow to find out. How do I know this? Well, I work there.

Here's a little hint - it doesn't involve the city.

[Thunderball]

Originally posted by I-Hate-Hulse+Apr 26 2005, 10:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (I-Hate-Hulse @ Apr 26 2005, 10:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Thunderball@Apr 26 2005, 09:12 PM
Am I the only one who liked the idea of $100m going to attractions, but hated which attractions got money and how much money they got?

I mean, $40 million for a LIBRARY!?!? come on!

$25 million should've been put into McMahon Stadium to have a partial roof, grass or fieldturf, better seating and concessions. (FYI we lost the bid to the 2007 FIFA U-20 World Cup cause of this)

Significant funding should have also gone into Burns/Foothills Park to make it more like Telus Field and less of a hole, say $10 million.

Say $10 million to the zoo, $10m to the science centre and $10 million for a library.

$5 million each to Fort Calgary and Heritage Park.

$5 million into any upgrades Jack Singer and Glenbow may need

And put the rest ($20 million) towards LRT or Roads like it was intended.

But no, lets blow it on a library....

Personally, I would like to have seen something "new" introduced into the mix rather than gussie up some of the older ones, like Heritage Park which to me anyways, have a limited appeal. I'm OK with the family and education oriented things like the zoo - anyone who's been to the Ontario Science Center knows how interesting that can be for all ages. (I still remember their Science of Sport exhibit, hella cool...) Am I the only one old enough to remember the "Energium" that the ERCB had on? I used to love playing that drilling game...

$40 million sounds like a lot but to build a large building (twice the size of the existing dump downtown), equip it with books and materials, and give it a dash of design (unless you're from the Moon School of Design ), $40M is really not that out of the realm.

Rather than money go into the facilities of pro sports, for which the majority of people in the city derive no direct benefit, I'd prefer to see it directed towards things like Lindsey Park, and the Calgary Indoor Soccer Center. Ask any parent how big soccer is now, and how ridiculously insufficient the existing facilities are.

I've heard an unconfirmed rumour the Science Center land has been sold, and would be relocating to the East Village under Bronco's plan. [/b][/quote]
I think its hard to say the majority of the city has no benefit... both McMahon and Foothills are used for University and Amateur sports.

Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people who sit in the stands... a roof for the fans, better facilities without a raise in tickets affects way more people than the Science Centre, Fort Calgary or a Heritage Park.

[Muta]

Originally posted by Thunderball@Apr 26 2005, 10:47 PM

Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people who sit in the stands... a roof for the fans, better facilities without a raise in tickets affects way more people than the Science Centre, Fort Calgary or a Heritage Park.

Ozy_Flame and I conducted a feasibility study on a roof at McMahon Stadium a couple years ago, and it won't work. The closest thing the McMahon Society can do is put a bubble over the field.

The next best thing would be to upgrade the stadium, or at an extreme, construct a new stadium. McMahon has been around since the 60's, and the facility is starting to become seriously dilapitated.

[Clarkey]

Originally posted by Muta+Apr 27 2005, 04:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Muta @ Apr 27 2005, 04:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Thunderball@Apr 26 2005, 10:47 PM

Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people who sit in the stands... a roof for the fans, better facilities without a raise in tickets affects way more people than the Science Centre, Fort Calgary or a Heritage Park.

Ozy_Flame and I conducted a feasibility study on a roof at McMahon Stadium a couple years ago, and it won't work. The closest thing the McMahon Society can do is put a bubble over the field.

The next best thing would be to upgrade the stadium, or at an extreme, construct a new stadium. McMahon has been around since the 60's, and the facility is starting to become seriously dilapitated. [/b][/quote]
Aren't you a business student at UofC? Where'd you get all this architectural knowledge?

[Incinerator]

If I was mayor I'd drop that $100 mil on a new Saddledome

[Muta]

Originally posted by Clarkey@Apr 27 2005, 12:06 AM

Aren't you a business student at UofC? Where'd you get all this architectural knowledge?

My dad is an architect with a large firm that's doing the Children's Hospital and the new Courthouse towers.

When I'm not at Haskayne I'm constantly surrounded by architectural information and talk.

I can't help it, I was born into it.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally posted by Thunderball@Apr 26 2005, 10:47 PM
I think its hard to say the majority of the city has no benefit... both McMahon and Foothills are used for University and Amateur sports.

Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people who sit in the stands... a roof for the fans, better facilities without a raise in tickets affects way more people than the Science Centre, Fort Calgary or a Heritage Park.

Thousands for a Dino Game?

If we're looking for ways to blow the city's money, I say we put those Rhino Party guys into City Hall. I liked some of their previous platforms:

• LRT Extension to Mexico
• Dome over Fish Creek Park

[Resolute 14]

While I have no problem with how this $100 million was handed out, I do tend to agree with you Thunderball. This city has an elitist attitude at times, and treats our sporting facilities as the poor sister to the rest of the city's attractions.

More people go to the Saddledome than any of those attractions. More people visit McMahon and Foothills than most of those attractions. World Class cities need to accomodate the interests of all people, not just the elitists.


As for the cost of coring to build the LRT's, I believe that is the exact reason why Calgary's LRT is massively larger than Edmonton's. They built much of their line underground, while ours was mostly built above ground.

[flamingchina]

What we need, is a good dictatorship government like china, and don't worry about property rights, pay manual labourers little, and well, It'll get done
I personally think Calgary should pull a Vancouver. Put a green belt around the city (maybe not in the industrial section) and go for density not sprawl.
Allowing them to knock down the old hotel up on bow trail, and put in condos was pretty stupid, as that would have been an excellent train station up that direction, but ahh well.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by the_only_turek_fan@Apr 27 2005, 03:43 AM
How in the world is this going to work?

The current LRT line runs along 7th Ave.

If there are a lot of buildings built along 8th avenue they are going to have stations along 8th and have the train going north one block to 7th ave?

That makes no sense to me one bit.

Am I missing something here?

From what I read in this thread it sounds like the existing 7th Ave LRT might be completely replaced by an underground LRT at 8th Ave. That's my interpretation.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher+Apr 27 2005, 10:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flames Draft Watcher @ Apr 27 2005, 10:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-the_only_turek_fan@Apr 27 2005, 03:43 AM
How in the world is this going to work?

The current LRT line runs along 7th Ave.

If there are a lot of buildings built along 8th avenue they are going to have stations along 8th and have the train going north one block to 7th ave?

That makes no sense to me one bit.

Am I missing something here?

From what I read in this thread it sounds like the existing 7th Ave LRT might be completely replaced by an underground LRT at 8th Ave. That's my interpretation. [/b][/quote]
Now that would be a collosal waste of tax money if you ask me.

The d/t core is fine as it is.

If LRT money is to be spent now IMO it should be spent out in the NE now getting the LRT past Whitehorn and to the Airport.

[Thunderball]

Originally posted by Muta+Apr 26 2005, 10:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Muta @ Apr 26 2005, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Thunderball@Apr 26 2005, 10:47 PM

Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people who sit in the stands... a roof for the fans, better facilities without a raise in tickets affects way more people than the Science Centre, Fort Calgary or a Heritage Park.

Ozy_Flame and I conducted a feasibility study on a roof at McMahon Stadium a couple years ago, and it won't work. The closest thing the McMahon Society can do is put a bubble over the field.

The next best thing would be to upgrade the stadium, or at an extreme, construct a new stadium. McMahon has been around since the 60's, and the facility is starting to become seriously dilapitated. [/b][/quote]
I don't suppose you've ever read the Canada World Cup of Soccer bid where they talk about costs of refitting McMahon to meet FIFA standards (roof for fans, grass/fieldturf, jumbotron, luxury seating, etc.) anyway, they said $24.6 million to get it up to code, do you think that its even possible, or does the wrecking ball seem the best option?

As for thousands at Dinos games, I've seen it personally. Remember, 1000 people looks like nothing in McMahon.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by the_only_turek_fan@Apr 27 2005, 09:54 AM
Now that would be a collosal waste of tax money if you ask me.

The d/t core is fine as it is.

If LRT money is to be spent now IMO it should be spent out in the NE now getting the LRT past Whitehorn and to the Airport.

Building interchanges is also a collossal waste of money then.

The idea of a subway at 8th avenue is to relieve congestion caused by the LRT on 7th Ave - both for the trains and the cars. The point is to move people faster and more efficiently.

Of course, the 8th ave subway is still decades into the future. If it was coming any time soon, they would not be retrofitting the existing stations on 7th avenue to accept four car trains.

[Claeren]

Exactly.

8th ave subway is a long way off but it is a much better (with all of the pedestrian traffic already there now, not to mention in 50 years) choice then 7th ave for such a project. It could/would make it a world class street...

7th ave can physically only hold so many trains at a certain (and differing depending on location along the line) distance apart at any given time. As LRT traffic builds it has less and less flexibility and has to run perfectly at all times. They want 4 train cars running through that core at 90sec intervials, they are no where near that right now, nor can they be on 7th ave....

Remember two points TOTF, the LRT is not going to the airport via the NE line and one line down 8th ave could double the amount of people the LRT could manage through that corridor per hour. As essentially a commuter rail doing 80% of its business between specific hours going from say 20,000 passengers/HOUR to 40,000 passengers/hour is HUGE. Looking around on my daily commute at other cars that would look to be a jump from 20,000 cars off the roads each HOUR of rush hour to removing 40,000 cars/hour.

I am not sure of actual hourly capacities but daily capacity should grow from ~100,000/day now, to ~200,000 when they HAVE to build a tunnel, to ~300,000-500,000 range when the tunnel is done and the othe rlines open.

A typical lane of freeway takes a non-rush-hour max of, i believe, 10,000 trips/hour. So i wonder how much it would cost (money and quality of life) to build a minimum of 10 freeway lanes into the core and 100 dispersal lanes for once those cars reach the core? Parking for them in the core? etc....


Claeren.