Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don't even see how a question can be a strawman. I'm asking him if that's what he thinks.

Sure, Jan.

Wait... are you saying that you've never engaged in personal attacks or straw men against anyone in your entire posting history here?

[FlamesAddiction]

Worth mentioning that some First Nations have Gofundme drives going to search for more graves on or around residential school properties. There are an estimated 4,100 children that didn’t come home from residential schools. For personal reconciliation, some people might feel compelled to donate. One of that Nations here already surpassed their $30,000 goal and are donating to the others.

FYI, 4,100 out of about 150,000, so roughly 3% of the kids that went, so a lot higher than the normal child mortality rate. Some of those were runaways, but I can’t imagine life turned out well for them either way.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Sure, Jan.

Wait... are you saying that you've never engaged in personal attacks or straw men against anyone in your entire posting history here?

Hahaha.

It's nice to know you can be funny, when given the chance.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Worth mentioning that some First Nations have Gofundme drives going to search for more graves on or around residential school properties. There are an estimated 4,100 children that didn’t come home from residential schools. For personal reconciliation, some people might feel compelled to donate. One of that Nations here already surpassed their $30,000 goal and are donating to the others.

This is good, but it's honestly shameful the government isn't fronting 100% of this cost and making this a priority.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This is good, but it's honestly shameful the government isn't fronting 100% of this cost and making this a priority.

Can you imagine? The mechanisms of government funding this would take far longer than a gofundme campaign... Which in itself is an indication of the broader problem.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Worth mentioning that some First Nations have Gofundme drives going to search for more graves on or around residential school properties. There are an estimated 4,100 children that didn’t come home from residential schools. For personal reconciliation, some people might feel compelled to donate. One of that Nations here already surpassed their $30,000 goal and are donating to the others.

Where else to relatives of murder victims (assuming that every grave has at least one suspected homicide victim) have to fundraise?

I really feel that we (Canadians) are really going to have a cultural reckoning around this. Its likely our country has multiple mass graves of children, that is got to change our smug confidence in our cultures social legitimacy.

When I read Bob Johnson's 21 Things You Don't Know about the Indian Act...it shocked me that our government implemented a caste system. One that not only gave totalitarian control to Indian Affairs agents over the lives of people, but also subjugated Indigenous women to institutionalized disenfranchisement (loss of legal rights based off of marriage, unable to vote until the 1960's IIRC). And the years following the implementation of Treaty 7 also showed breathtakingly bad performance by the Government in preventing starvation.

Is there any reason why the residential school system can't be defined as a concentration camp (not equivalent to the Nazi's...but a concentration camp nonetheless)?

Generally speaking, a concentration camp is a place where people are concentrated and imprisoned without trial. Inmates are usually exploited for their labour and kept under harsh conditions

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Where else to relatives of murder victims (assuming that every grave has at least one suspected homicide victim) have to fundraise?

I really feel that we (Canadians) are really going to have a cultural reckoning around this. Its likely our country has multiple mass graves of children, that is got to change our smug confidence in our cultures social legitimacy.

When I read Bob Johnson's 21 Things You Don't Know about the Indian Act...it shocked me that our government implemented a caste system. One that not only gave totalitarian control to Indian Affairs agents over the lives of people, but also subjugated Indigenous women to institutionalized disenfranchisement (loss of legal rights based off of marriage, unable to vote until the 1960's IIRC). And the years following the implementation of Treaty 7 also showed breathtakingly bad performance by the Government in preventing starvation.

Is there any reason why the residential school system can't be defined as a concentration camp (not equivalent to the Nazi's...but a concentration camp nonetheless)?

Generally speaking, a concentration camp is a place where people are concentrated and imprisoned without trial. Inmates are usually exploited for their labour and kept under harsh conditions

The British did learn a lot about racial segregation implemented in Canada from their experience in India and how it was implemented there, so comparing it to a caste system is probably accurate.

Even today, there are about 140,000 Indigenous kids in government care. It’s hard to break the cycle of inter-generational trauma.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm shocked, I'm onboard with Singh's opposition day motion this morning. Stop fighting the lawsuits and human rights challenges, and pay the compensation.


Do better, don't release a fluffy document with a we're going to do stuff, but have no budget or dates or plans. STUFF is not enough. We've seen STUFF from this government in terms of the abuse of woman in the military, in terms of mecury poisoning in terms of clean drinking water.


Virtue signaling and pious apologies and pretend action plans that wait another 4 or 5 or 6 years ain't going to do it anymore.



Oh and on top of that, and this is from a lapsed Catholic, if the Pope doesn't roll out an apology and a action plan with compensation, look into removing the Churh's tax free status.



I haven't commented in this thread, because what am I going to say or argue? Its gross and disgusting, and its hard to believe that this was allowed to continue into the 70's. What's wrong with these people. Figure it out. Do something. Stop pointing at a paper and yelling "LOOK STUFF", and thinking that it means anything other then being a slap in the face

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This is good, but it's honestly shameful the government isn't fronting 100% of this cost and making this a priority.

Canada: crowd fundraising reconciliation.

Just so on-brand.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

...it shocked me that our government implemented a caste system.

I have a copy of my great grandmothers "Certificate of Half Breed Status"

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'm shocked, I'm onboard with Singh's opposition day motion this morning. Stop fighting the lawsuits and human rights challenges, and pay the compensation.


Do better, don't release a fluffy document with a we're going to do stuff, but have no budget or dates or plans. STUFF is not enough. We've seen STUFF from this government in terms of the abuse of woman in the military, in terms of mecury poisoning in terms of clean drinking water.


Virtue signaling and pious apologies and pretend action plans that wait another 4 or 5 or 6 years ain't going to do it anymore.



Oh and on top of that, and this is from a lapsed Catholic, if the Pope doesn't roll out an apology and a action plan with compensation, look into removing the Churh's tax free status.



I haven't commented in this thread, because what am I going to say or argue? Its gross and disgusting, and its hard to believe that this was allowed to continue into the 70's. What's wrong with these people. Figure it out. Do something. Stop pointing at a paper and yelling "LOOK STUFF", and thinking that it means anything other then being a slap in the face

There should be no tax exemptions for religious entities at all, ever, for any reason.

As for the talk over action: I wonder what the voting blocs are that are resistant to the action. The Liberals have always tread carefully with this stuff, mixed in with some incompetence of course. So what is causing them to treat this issue so carefully.

Compensation is a tricky question. Do you mean financial compensation? If that's the case, then this is a difficult topic. FN people/leaders have maintained that there is no price to be paid that is sufficient for injustices. There is an unwillingness to treat this like, say, an insurance company treats someone who loses a finger or suffers a death...they attach specific dollar values to those. This is why reparations are so difficult to do - without treating them as an endpoint, they do not accomplish their goal.

[Wormius]

Can you imagine the boon if all religious orgs were taxed. Could instead offer tax cuts to businesses that need it and not impact other spending.

[V]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'm shocked, I'm onboard with Singh's opposition day motion this morning. Stop fighting the lawsuits and human rights challenges, and pay the compensation.


Do better, don't release a fluffy document with a we're going to do stuff, but have no budget or dates or plans. STUFF is not enough. We've seen STUFF from this government in terms of the abuse of woman in the military, in terms of mecury poisoning in terms of clean drinking water.


Virtue signaling and pious apologies and pretend action plans that wait another 4 or 5 or 6 years ain't going to do it anymore.



Oh and on top of that, and this is from a lapsed Catholic, if the Pope doesn't roll out an apology and a action plan with compensation, look into removing the Churh's tax free status.



I haven't commented in this thread, because what am I going to say or argue? Its gross and disgusting, and its hard to believe that this was allowed to continue into the 70's. What's wrong with these people. Figure it out. Do something. Stop pointing at a paper and yelling "LOOK STUFF", and thinking that it means anything other then being a slap in the face

This government is phenomenal at apologizing for stuff from the past, and terrible at actually implementing anything that might even make a small dent in reparations. They're obviously going to stick with what they're good at. I'm doing my little part that hopefully moves the needle in a microscopic way, but it would be nice if the leaders of this country would actually get off their asses and do something that isn't empty platitudes and void of anything substantial.

Personally, I find it really gross that we see such a strong reaction from so many people about re-naming monuments/buildings of people that have been proving to be involved in incredibly distasteful practices. It's such a small thing that negatively affects nobody, and actually provides benefit to those indigenous people that have asked for such action. It's such a no-brainer. Honestly, stop naming anything after anyone. Moral stances move so much over so little time, it won't be long before today's heroes will be condemned for however the moral needle moves. Just stop the cycle and stop naming things after people.

And finally, for the love of Pete, can the pages and pages of posts complaining about how people are arguing a point just stop. Rube is attracted to Cliff posts like a moth to a flame, Pepsi and Corsi have some weird thing for each other in basically every thread, can we just get over it and actually talk about the topic at hand that's incredibly important?

BTW, I appreciate the irony or hypocrisy of complaining about complaining about posters. I hope that by pointing it out myself I can avoid other posters from spending valuable discussion space pointing it out themselves.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Worth mentioning that some First Nations have Gofundme drives going to search for more graves on or around residential school properties. There are an estimated 4,100 children that didn’t come home from residential schools. For personal reconciliation, some people might feel compelled to donate. One of that Nations here already surpassed their $30,000 goal and are donating to the others.

FYI, 4,100 out of about 150,000, so roughly 3% of the kids that went, so a lot higher than the normal child mortality rate. Some of those were runaways, but I can’t imagine life turned out well for them either way.

Some now estimate the number could be 6000 or higher.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

look into removing the Churh's tax free status.

This needs to happen regardless. The idea of allowing religious institutions to be tax free was asinine to begin with. Make 'em pay taxes just like the rest of us.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by you&me

Can you imagine? The mechanisms of government funding this would take far longer than a gofundme campaign... Which in itself is an indication of the broader problem.

Case in point, it took 89 years after the first investigation and condemnation of residential schools (Bryce report in 1907) before they actually closed the schools.

The Hawthorne report in 1963 also highlighted residential schools as unjust and was one of the reasons Pierre Trudeau tried to abolish the Indian Act. His proposal went too far however and was almost unanimously rejected because it included giving up all special status, which was a big sacrifice. The government should have just got rid of residential schools and saved the other issues for another day.

[Duruss]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I have a copy of my great grandmothers "Certificate of Half Breed Status"

I never knew they did that, do you maybe mind sharing a photo? And what did your Grandmother think/feel about being labeled like that?.

[DFO]

Have any of the churches been sued as of yet? As agents of the government they certainly seem culpable.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by DFO

Have any of the churches been sued as of yet? As agents of the government they certainly seem culpable.

No, and maybe I'm spit balling, but, maybe this is why the Church and the pope are unwilling to do a public apology, because it would open the flood gates on massive class action law suites.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

No, and maybe I'm spit balling, but, maybe this is why the Church and the pope are unwilling to do a public apology, because it would open the flood gates on massive class action law suites.

I think that is part of it, especially for the Protestant and Anglican churches that ran schools. For the Catholic Church, that is probably a concern, but there is also an element of denial because they view these as policies of the state as the orders to force assimilation through residential schools never came from Rome, but from London and Ottawa.

The first Catholic residential schools appeared in the 1600s and generally had low enrolment and were a choice. Not sure when the other churches started them. It wasn’t until the 1830s that the state passed the Assimilation acts that enabled the state to rip children from their homes and force them to the schools. It was a British and Canadian policy, not a Catholic, Anglican, or Presbyterian policy (the three denominations that I know offhand ran schools). It’s totally a cop out when it comes to the abuse aspects and they should definitely apologize for that. For what it is worth, Catholic Archbishops in Canada have apologized. It would be nice if it came from the power center though, I agree.

The poor sanitary conditions, lack of Human Resources, kidnaping and forced assimilation is on the governments in my opinion and the churches are cautious not to accept blame for that.

No analogy is perfect, but I sort of compare it to someone who hires a hitman. The state basically hired hitmen to carry out their tasks.