[Signing] Flames re-sign Stone (3 yrs, $3.5 mil AAV)

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Lil Pedro

HF Oilers is definitely worth a read today if you are in need of a laugh. Those losers are so out of touch it isn't even funny. Looking forward to the BOA this year.

Apparently playing Russell on the second pairing makes him a 2nd pairing dman. lol

[Enoch Root]

dp

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Apparently playing Russell on the second pairing makes him a 2nd pairing dman. lol

And the arguing led to a poll being started

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=2365295

[JurassicTunga12]

I've never seen such a delusional fan base. good lord.

Flames have no depth. Oilers have a better defense. Awful prospect pool. I've never seen a fan base cling to a 4 game series before like Oilers fans do.

[GoJetsGo]

I feel dirty having looked over there.

One of the first things I read was "Signing Stone was a stupid move because now we don't even have the money to re-sign Wideman".

That is a special kind of stupid over there.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I feel dirty having looked over there.

One of the first things I read was "Signing Stone was a stupid move because now we don't even have the money to re-sign Wideman".

That is a special kind of stupid over there.

[Jay Random]

I'm a believer in spending a little above average on defence. Bear with me and I'll explain why:

Ignoring OT, shorthanded time and empty nets, there are 300 man-minutes per game to divide among 18 skaters. Of those minutes, 120 (40%) go to defencemen, which on the face of it suggests that it's worth investing up to 40% of the team's budget for skaters on the blue line. Knock 20% off the cap for goalies, extra bodies, and wiggle room, and you have about $60 million to spend on your top 18 skaters, and so (presumably) $24 million to spend on your six regular defencemen.

The Flames' #5 D is expected to play 18 of those 120 minutes, or 15% of the total time, which seems reasonable. Well, 15% of $24 million is $3.6 million. You'd like to spend less, but on the UFA market, you can't really expect to get any bargains.

The Flames are spending a little over $24 million on defencemen, and Stone is making a hair under $3.6 million. If he can turn in a league-average performance over the term of his contract, it's fair value for money. The question, then, is whether he's an average NHL defenceman. Based on his last two seasons, it looks like he's possibly a bit above average when healthy and scoring, and significantly below average when injured and not scoring. I think he represents a reasonable bet at the price. Factor in his value as insurance in case of an injury in the top four, and I think it's a pretty solid deal.

The fact is, $3.5 million is not a lot of money in the NHL nowadays. I get the feeling that some people are complaining because they think an average player should come in around 2 or 2.5. It's been several years since that was the case. This is not a cheap signing, but I think it's a prudent one and I have no objection to it.

[CaptainCrunch]

Probably not much of a battle of alberta this year, as Chia is forced to disassemble his team, and the horseshoes fall out of their collective butts. McDavid will look around at what looks like a meh below average team around him and will vanish like he did against the Ducks.

Talbot will one night board a bus to Alaska and never be seen again.

[CaptainCrunch]

The way I see it this year.

Even if the Flames split the season series with the Oilers 8 point swing based on last year Edmonton 99 calgary 98

Missing Sekeras til Jan and Eberle's offense and Poulliot's depth 3 wins Edmonton 93.

Talbot can't replicate last years miracle season 4 wins Edmonton 85.

If the schedule is tougher 3 wins Edmonton 79 points and 38 wins.


June 1st Chia fired for putting his team in complete cap hell. T-Mac canned for insulting Draisaitl who coasts on his 8.5 mill contract.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The way I see it this year.

Even if the Flames split the season series with the Oilers 8 point swing based on last year Edmonton 99 calgary 98

Missing Sekeras til Jan and Eberle's offense and Poulliot's depth 3 wins Edmonton 93.

Talbot can't replicate last years miracle season 4 wins Edmonton 85.

If the schedule is tougher 3 wins Edmonton 79 points and 38 wins.


June 1st Chia fired for putting his team in complete cap hell. T-Mac canned for insulting Draisaitl who coasts on his 8.5 mill contract.

I like the way you think

[flame^thrower]

Well 13 pages is all I can get through .. too much complaining!

I honestly think we are NOT paying a #5 defensman 3.5, we are paying a #4 defensman to be in our top 5 .. DEPTH for Christ sake people. Enough bitching please, its not like it's an untradeble contract.

I am sure that's all a FATA but I can't bear to read through anymore ...

I love this D we have now. This should really help our goalies and youngsters. There really should be no excuses for our GA now!

This offseason is hurting my face from grinning so far!

[Freddy]

This is now the deepest blue line the Flames will ice in a looonng time. I was impressed with Stone in his games with us last season and think term & dollars compliment Tre's cap management. The other thing the complainers should think about is that these young guys not being given opportunities are going to be logging bigger minutes (pro experience) while contributing to better farm success and growing confidence/ culture of success from top to bottom within whole organization. Watching the exit interviews from Stockton you really got a sense the team had bonded as a group and at the end of the season felt they could have gone on to do more damage. Having the bubble guys being leaders and top line minute eaters in Stockton is way better than 10-12 min 3/4th line mistake free hockey they'd be playing in the NHL.

That said, would like to see 2 guys promoted from Stockton this season, Janko and ....Andersson? ....Wotherspoon? ....Klimchuk? ....Mangiapane?

Good job Treliving!!

[oldschoolcalgary]

I am actually a little surprised by the number of people that are unhappy with the signing...

as many have stated previously, this year's defense actually is less expensive than last year! I mean that pretty unbelievable considering how much better I think this defense is.

at 3 years, 3.5 avv, this is hardly an untradeble contract... I'll wager that all the other UFA defense men will go for similar or more expensive contracts tomorrow.

Stone wants to be in Calgary, and he already has familiarity with the team and also Mike Smith...

all good news so far

[jlh2640]

Love the term and AMT. We are doing well. Need young guys to step in. And to sign a forward

[Calgary4LIfe]

Absolutely love this signing. It makes the Hamonic deal so much better. I felt that Hamonic in a bubble was definitely worth his acquisition cost, but it is a steep price to pay for an upgrade from Stone to Hamonic. Now the Hamonic deal is that much more awesome.

Analytics don't always get players right I feel. I like Russell as a defencemen, but I didn't want Russell back since he is useless against the big heavy teams along the boards. To me, it is difficult to put someone like Russell in the top 4. Other smaller defencemen seem able to compensate with quickness or just a better stick, but Russell just seems like he just is more an annoyance than anything.

Stone brings the capability along the boards. He can move the puck well. He shoots well. His skating is good. Everything about him to me screams "top 4 defencemen", and he is also only 26. Many defencemen start breaking out at this age.

I also subscribe to the concept that if you are going to overpay players, make the overpay defencemen. They are on the ice longer and can really control games. They are also much more difficult to replace effectively when injured. So while I may agree that paying your 5th D 3.5 million is 'too much', this adds so much depth.

Grouping the top 5 as a unit in cap hit is good. Very good. It is inevitable that Stone plays top 4 for periods of time due to injuries. I figure that Stone is going to eat up his match-ups as well. He was normally facing top-pairing guys in Arizona, was he not? Now he gets to match-up against scrubs at times. Ice should be much easier for him to control. I am a firm believer in proper slotting, and pushing two top pairing D-men (who both have played top-pairing before with great results) into a middle pairing is great, and further great if you push a top 4 defencemen (who is still young and improving) into the #5 slot. Other teams are going to have a hell of a time matching up against Calgary.

I just don't see the downside to this. Sure, it limits the prospects coming up through the pipe, but if they push their way onto the Flames then the Flames have great assets to move in trades.

If Bennett improves and develops chemistry with Versteeg, Lazar, Jankowski... whomever - the Flames will be a nightmare to play against from a match-up point of view. Their 4th line is not terrible either (well, hoping Brouwer has a bit of a bounce-back). Gulutzan will have an easy time on the road and at home, and the Flames don't have to worry about having guys get caught on a line change.

Lastly, is 3.5 million that much of an overpayment for the #5 role? I don't think so any longer. 10 years ago you paid your 6th and even 5th Ds a million or less, but these days you get washed-up players or guys on their ELCs. Now if you prioritize and control the cap right, you can maximize the talent and make ti more difficult for teams to beat you.

Ecstatic about this move.

[Roof-Daddy]

Giordano - Undrafted free agent signing
Brodie - 4th rounder
Hamilton - One 1st rounder, two 2nd rounders
Hamonic - One 1st rounder, two 2nd rounders
Stone - One 3rd rounder, one 5th rounder


Kudos to Treliving for taking what he had to work with, and putting together a very solid D core

Just goes to show though, nothing is as efficient as drafting and developing your own players

Fowler - 1st rounder
Lindholm - 1st rounder
Manson - 6th rounder
Vatanen - 4th rounder
Montour - 2nd rounder

5 picks to build the Ducks top 5
9 picks to build the Flames top 5

[Beninho]

So happy with this deal. What depth on defense. Flames used to have big problems when one of the top 3 got injured, not anymore. What an off season.

[Enoch Root]

Simply saying Stone is a #5 and therefore $3.5M is too much, is incredibly short-sighted IMO. Some reasons why it's beneficial to have a solid #5:

1) Injuries, which has been thoroughly covered
2) Ice-time - it's a long season. Lots of people talking about the top 4 all playing 25 minutes each so that they could run with 2 kids on the third pair. Brutal asset management IMO. Having a #5 that you can count on means less ice-time for the top 4, keeping them fresher and healthier.
3) PK - Stone is great on the PK and being able to play him there means less PK time for the top 4, allowing them to be utilized more in better situations
4) Mentoring the #6. With a more trustworthy partner, the bottom pair can be given more ice-time, adding to the points above

Having a great #5 doesn't just mean having a good third pairing. It also helps keep the top 4 fresher and allows for them to be utilized more for key situations.

It absolutely amazes me that people don't like this acquisition. Would $2.5M been better? Sure. But $3.5M isn't bad, and the team is way better - much much deeper - for it.

[taxbuster]

/rant on

I'm really starting to tire of CP nonsense, sad to say. There are SO many people on here who think that they could be a better GM by underpaying everyone (in addition to making them REALLY want to play in Calgary because we're so......wonderful to play in while being underpaid?).

Or maybe they think that they can fleece every other GM in the league by trading some utility player(s) for a bona fide RW (say).

And of course, they could all manage the salary cap soooo much better than the Flames / Tre are currently doing, end up first in the division and likely win a Cup.

Um reality sucks, folks. Life isn't that way. Everyone isn't stupid.

I'm pretty sure that tomorrow Tre will pick up 1 or 2 overpaid hackneyed vets that have outlived their usefulness everywhere else in the league and that they missed the 4 or 5 guys who really could have helped and he could've gotten for cheap (remember, the underpaying part, right?).

Wow, reading this thread, just wow.

/rant off

Then again - happy Canada Day (soon)!

[slcrocket]

I think that there are legitimate stances on both sides of this deal; I LOVE having the depth that Stone brings to the team, but there is no arguing that he is going to play as a #5 defenseman for this team (barring injuries), whether or not he actually IS a #5-caliber defenseman - and $3.5 mil/year is a hefty price for a guy who will play as your #5 defenseman.

But what I would love to read in this thread is less of:
1) This is a better deal than Russell. Yes, this is true, but just because Option A is better than Option B doesn't mean that Option A is inherently good.
2) We can afford to pay Stone more as a #5 D-Man because Hamonic's deal is so great. This is also true, but it doesn't mean using that extra money is on Stone is the BEST use of that extra money - especially when we still need some help with our forwards, even if some of the young guys stand out like we hope.
3) Stone is a legitimate second pairing defenseman; that's fine, but in Calgary he won't play as a second pairing defenseman, again barring any injuries. It doesn't matter how good we might think he is, I don't think anyone is arguing that he will ever replace any of our Top 4 unless somebody gets hurt.

Better than Russell? Yes. Best use of the shrewd cap moves Treliving has been making? I would argue no. In the end I'm okay with this deal because I believe that it is highly possible we will lose one of our blue liners due to injury at some point in the season - but I don't like the AAV and I don't love that the glut of young defensemen we have in the system are going to be blocked by one more player for the next three years.