63 Canadians killed after civilian airliner shot down.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by blankall

Watched the video. It's a little bit hard to see what's going on. But the first missile misses? and then they shoot another one about 30 seconds after the first?

Obviously, the distances look smaller from our view, but they aren't shooting from that far away. Surely, they'd be able to get enough of a visual to distinguish between a jumbo jet and a cruise missile. You'd assume the speeds would be totally different.

In the stories out there the plane was hit by the first missile and the transponder at that point was destroyed.


A airliner travels at a quarter the speed of a cruise missile and the airline was gaining altitude, cruise missiles don't really do that they try to fly low under radar coverage.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Not even just visually you'd be able to tell what that plane is.

I really just think someone was on that plane they didn't want leaving the country

There was a question out there that out of the planes that were taking off this one had no American's or Russians on it.

[CaptainCrunch]

The New York Times has verified security camera footage on Tuesday that shows, for the first time, that two missiles hit Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 on Jan. 8. The missiles were launched from an Iranian military site around eight miles from the plane.
The new video fills a gap about why the plane’s transponder stopped working, seconds before it was hit by a second missile.

to add

The new video appears to confirm that an initial strike disabled the transponder, before the second strike, also seen in the video, around 23 seconds later.

[blankall]

It was hit twice? This pretty much dispels the itchy finger excuse.

[CaptainCrunch]

That's what the video is showing.

[Azure]

Two missiles? I bet that fall guy feels really, really bad about that.

What a mess.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

In the stories out there the plane was hit by the first missile and the transponder at that point was destroyed.


A airliner travels at a quarter the speed of a cruise missile and the airline was gaining altitude, cruise missiles don't really do that they try to fly low under radar coverage.

Actually a 737 at cruising speed is slightly faster than a tomahawk cruise missile. Probably not during ascent though.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by blankall

It was hit twice? This pretty much dispels the itchy finger excuse.

I think Baron said earlier in the thread that a TOR launcher automatically fires 2 missiles. I don’t know if that’s accurate or not

[blankall]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I think Baron said earlier in the thread that a TOR launcher automatically fires 2 missiles. I don’t know if that’s accurate or not

2 missiles 30 seconds apart? That doesn't seem like a very good system. Many targets would be out of range or already down. You'd often be firing a second missile into nothing.

[Baron von Kriterium]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I think Baron said earlier in the thread that a TOR launcher automatically fires 2 missiles. I don’t know if that’s accurate or not

No. I didn't write that and it isn't accurate. I wrote a bunch of other speculation which appears to have been wrong hahaha. Anyway...

TOR-M1 has two radars. One long-range (24km) radar for target acquisition (TA) and one big square, flat one on the front of the 'turret' for fine tracking a designated target (12km, 0 - 60 degrees of elevation). The TOR can, however, auto acquire/designate and auto-track multiple targets.

A computer considers data from the TA and designates targets by general type: precision guided bomb/cruise missile; aircraft; helicopter; and unidentified. It also classifies them in IFF terms: friendly, foe or unknown. The TOR operator still has to push a button to actually fire a missile.

[CaptainCrunch]

just reading up on the Tor, it supposed to display the transponder code of the air craft as well if the transponder is on. so a Civilian airliner will be labeled as such and also have a two digit flight number.


In the NYT article yesterday, it said the planes transponder was working until the first missile strike, then was probably destroyed and then the second missile hit 23 seconds later.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by blankall

2 missiles 30 seconds apart? That doesn't seem like a very good system. Many targets would be out of range or already down. You'd often be firing a second missile into nothing.

Well most likely not down if a 737 can still fly after 1 missile hit. That's pretty impressive. I wonder if they could have made it back without the 2nd missile.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

Well most likely not down if a 737 can still fly after 1 missile hit. That's pretty impressive. I wonder if they could have made it back without the 2nd missile.

Won't know until the investigation is complete. Which missile fired shrapnel through the cockpit, which is speculated.


The investigators need to see the tracks from the battery as well as where the strikes were. From the video that showed the first strike, I don't know if the plane was going to recover.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

Well most likely not down if a 737 can still fly after 1 missile hit. That's pretty impressive. I wonder if they could have made it back without the 2nd missile.

So Iran's missile defence, guarding one of their key parts to their capital city, is not only not capable of distinguishing the difference between a cruise missile and an airliner but also can't take a non-combat plane down in one shot?

The Iranian government has botched this whole thing from a number of angles.

They've also arrested the person who filmed the missiles:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51114945

[CaptainCrunch]

Of course they had, and the foreign minister has said that this is a military coverup and that the government had no clue about what's going on which is why they have been lying.


It sounds like this air defense unit wasn't regular military, but revolutionary guards. Is the Iranian Government going to use this to do a purge of the military?

[Baron von Kriterium]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

just reading up on the Tor, it supposed to display the transponder code of the air craft as well if the transponder is on. so a Civilian airliner will be labeled as such and also have a two digit flight number.


In the NYT article yesterday, it said the planes transponder was working until the first missile strike, then was probably destroyed and then the second missile hit 23 seconds later.

I don't believe this is true. Here is a picture of a TOR TA radar screen:



The TOR does not have an ADS-B receiver, nor does it have ADS-A,C (radar queried ADS request). Thus, the TOR operator has to add that data or someone higher has to give that data to him.

The longer-range radars at other AD sites theoretically should have seen anything that is approaching the edge of the TOR's radar view and already designated everything. Operators at the battalion or regiment level are the ones that should be watching civilian aircraft and ADS-B. They're the ones that communicate with civilian air traffic controllers. In an integrated environment, neither the TOR operator nor the TA radar computer should be surprised by the appearance of an unidentified, non-designated target. They shouldn't have to worry about looking up takeoff/departure times of any commercial flights. They wouldn't have time to do that with one target.

However, based on the comments from the IRGC Aerospace Commander, I do not believe this TOR was part of an integrated system as it seems to have been deployed at the last minute as a precaution against American retaliatory strikes. The TOR received orders at 00:00 UTC (0330 local) to deploy to BIDKANEH. Where in BIDKANEH? I do not know and I also do not know when the TOR actually arrived and set-up. It is certainly within the realm of possibility that this flight was the first they saw that day. And if they didn't receive any info from civilian authorities of flights operating...

[Fuzz]

https://goo.gl/maps/P9jsUX434AZB4LFs7


Bidkaneh. You can see the airport to the south, so that would have been in the area.

[CaptainCrunch]

https://igtds.org/2020/01/russian-ai...t-recognition/
Article on the Rusian shootdown and the Tor M1

[afc wimbledon]

One of the things that was found after the USS Vincennes shot down the Iranian airliner is that they were also aware that their equipment was telling them it was an airliner and civilian, to the extent they tried to make radio contact with the airliner and tell it to alter course, but under the high stress situation they decided to ignore everything their equipment was telling them and shoot down what they were perfectly aware was an airliner anyway because it might be a threat.

[nik-]

"Hey guys, don't forget the US is bad"