[News] Flames claim Joey MacDonald

[OzSome]

This move really puzzled me unless Kipper's injury is more serious than what they thought. If that's the case i think they wanted to send Taylor back to Heat to help them and use MacDonald as a backup. If Kipper comes back then there's a dilemma.

[3 Justin 3]

Jiri!

Wrong Thread!

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

watch your tone.

So he's only been waived once. I've watched the Heat play steady for years and I know he's lost his starter job 3 times.

Well when you are wrong you are wrong, so when you base your argument on the wrong facts, it ainèt worth much.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

is anyone else annoyed at the flames/heat for not giving irving playing time in abbotsford?

it just seems flat out dumb to not play your first round pick goalie in the minors, knowing when you don't have a backup, to then hand the guy the backup job in the NHL.

like i'd love to hear the justification from the organization on that.

Originally Posted by madmike

I'm annoyed at the awful job the organization does in developing players in general. As others have noted, ownership seems to have a fetish for playing aging, mediocre players over prospects. Frankly I'm getting tired of it. I can't stick up for the organization any more. They seem to be clueless as to how to develop a winning, talented team for the long term.

The reason is because he was the worst of the three goalies on the Heat and Ward, Weisbrod and Feaster are working on a meritocracy. It doesn't matter what round you were drafted, it matters what you bring to the rink every day. Irving was played so little because he didn't show he deserved it. And when he did get to play, he didn't look good.

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I knew the answer without looking. Maybe you should look so you'll find out you're wrong.

2012-13 - Beat out by Brust/Taylor
2011-2012 - Beat out by Taylor
2009 - 2010 - Beat out by David Shantz

Why are you so rude to fellow posters?

[Francis's Hairpiece]

Nm

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I knew the answer without looking. Maybe you should look so you'll find out you're wrong.

So its incorrect that he hasn't been the starter since Feaster took over? You can't be bothered to look it up? I did. I think you'll be surprised by the sounds of it.

[hixxes]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

2012-13 - Beat out by Brust/Taylor
2011-2012 - Beat out by Taylor
2009 - 2010 - Beat out by David Shantz

Why are you so rude to fellow posters?

You're sort of missing 2010-11 when he was widely regarded as one of the top goalies in the AHL.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Maybe i am missing what you mean...but i started back in 2000 which would have the age range from 23-31.

I meant that you should not use the 23-26 range of goaltenders when you formed that list. Only high quality or rushed goaltenders (or both) break in as starters in that range, a few exceptions aside. A list of 27-31 year old goaltenders 1st round picks makes a reasonable list. Basically just keep comparable age of players. No point adding young guys to that list when most goalies at 24 aren't starters yet (and as you point out in that post, none of the ones you want to compare to).

Basically what I'm saying with my post as a whole is that, while you're probably right for the top half of the draft because the alternatives are less risky, drafting a goalie in the first is still a worthwhile, though risky, venture as you still get some pretty quality goalies out of it as highlighed by the players like Schneider. You get about a 50% chance of landing a quality player in the bottom half, which is a little lower than getting an NHLer who become career NHLers (about 65%, which is variant based on what you cut off point is for defining "career NHLer"). I'm not sure how the fact that you can play any 4 lines as a career NHLer compares to the fact that most goalies with high game count only exist in a group of 30 impacts this stat though.

Originally Posted by Psytic

Someone on Hfboards did something like this with dman drafted in the top 5 going back to JBo and came to the same conclusion that its not worth drafting dman high either compared to forwards. Some of the names were Jbo, Barker, E. Johnson and J. Johnson. I think it was an argument against taking Seth Jones over guys like Mckinnon and Drouin.

That's an interesting point. I think this is a lot to do with development time. Is there a comparison of all three positions in a single compilation? I would bet the pecking order would be forwards should be drafted first, then defence, then goalies unless there's a really strong argument against breaking that order.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by LIP MAN

The more I play this scenario in my head, the more I find that this must be what it is. Of course, we're probably off (Kipper injury) but you never know. What do you think he'd fetch us? I think a first, third plus a middle tier prospect IMHO.

Honestly I don't even know. I was just throwing out all possible scenarios. I don't think it would be a spectacular return though hes not as young as Lou and is a retirement risk.

[moon]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

is anyone else annoyed at the flames/heat for not giving irving playing time in abbotsford?

it just seems flat out dumb to not play your first round pick goalie in the minors, knowing when you don't have a backup, to then hand the guy the backup job in the NHL.

like i'd love to hear the justification from the organization on that.

Not really angry because I am not sure playing a lot more games would have done all that much to make him better this year.

Ward wanted to go with his guys and that is understandable as they are going to be the guys down there all year so bringing in Irving for what could have been a few games and showing that he is above them doesn't send a good message to his guys.

Better to let the AHL guys play the AHL games and get ready and fit into the AHL team. Let Irving get a few games and practices to stay in shape and let him worry about getting ready for the NHL season.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by Psytic

So its incorrect that he hasn't been the starter since Feaster took over? You can't be bothered to look it up? I did. I think you'll be surprised by the sounds of it.

It's not so cut and dry. In 2009-2010 he lost the job towards the end of the year to Shantz who was their starter for playoffs. He was even sent to the ECHL this season. This was under head coach Jim Playfair.

In 2010, he was the starter, but only had JP Lamoureux and Matt Keetley to compete with, neither of whom are even AHLers at this point. JP did finish with better counting numbers than Irving though he played less games. The only year Irving was the undisputed starter, was the only season the Heat didn't make the AHL Calder Cup playoffs.

In 2011-2012 They brought in Taylor when Ortio couldn't hack it, and he proceeded to outshine Irving and ended up with the starting role and the Heat made their way back to the playoffs.

2012-13 was a weird situation with the lockout- leaving Ward with 3 tenders to choose from, but as he said several times over, he always picked the guy that looked the best in practice. And guess what, the two guys he repeatedly choose are among the top goalies in the AHL, and neither of their names are Irving.

That's basically how it went down.. but, remember, some people think I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by hixxes

You're sort of missing 2010-11 when he was widely regarded as one of the top goalies in the AHL.

He hasn't been the starter since Feaster came in. If we want to cherry pick seasons then the year before that he was in the ECHL and once again not the clear cut starter. I don't think the guy is a bad goalie but he hasn't been consistently good since his days with the Silvertips. He looks really good tonight though. My stance is trying to find the the rational behind why Mcdonald is here and that imo is because Irving must still be considered a crap shoot by management. Hes been up and down his whole career since leaving the dub.

2009-10: Irving struggled badly losing his starter's job in his sophomore season with the AHL Abbottsford Heat and later, he was re-assigned to the Victoria Salmon kings of the ECHL. The netminder posted reasonable numbers on a poor Salmon King's team. He had two wins with four loses and an okay goals against average of 3.06 but an excellent save percentage of .908 for Victoria. Irving was finally recalled to Abbottsford where he sat as the back-up goalie for the AHL Calder Cup playoffs only appearing in one playoff game which he gave up three goals on seven shots and playing only 14 minutes of the period. The supposed future starting goalie for the Calgary Flames collecting 14 wins along with 17 loses, two overtime loses and posting a goals against average of 2.76 with a good save percentage of .905 for the season.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by hixxes

You're sort of missing 2010-11 when he was widely regarded as one of the top goalies in the AHL.

I was listing the seasons where he lost his starting job. the three times it happened.

He was the team MVP in 2010 season, and he played more minutes than any other goalie, he led in shutouts also, and games played (obviously.) He was 2nd in wins, but he wasn't the leagues best netminder, that honor went to Brad Thiessen of the Wilksbury-Scranton Penguins.

And they didn't make the playoffs that year.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

It's not so cut and dry. In 2009-2010 he lost the job towards the end of the year to Shantz who was their starter for playoffs. He was even sent to the ECHL this season. This was under head coach Jim Playfair.

In 2010, he was the starter, but only had JP Lamoureux and Matt Keetley to compete with, neither of whom are even AHLers at this point. JP did finish with better counting numbers than Irving though he played less games. The only year Irving was the undisputed starter, was the only season the Heat didn't make the AHL Calder Cup playoffs.

In 2011-2012 They brought in Taylor when Ortio couldn't hack it, and he proceeded to outshine Irving and ended up with the starting role and the Heat made their way back to the playoffs.

2012-13 was a weird situation with the lockout- leaving Ward with 3 tenders to choose from, but as he said several times over, he always picked the guy that looked the best in practice. And guess what, the two guys he repeatedly choose are among the top goalies in the AHL, and neither of their names are Irving.

That's basically how it went down.. but, remember, some people think I don't know what I'm talking about.

Thats a better post. Last year he lost the job in the playoffs as he was given some time off because his wife had a baby and he never got it back. Also he was in an awkward situation with being called up and down for half the season. Irving has had lots of ups and downs as a goalie but it isnèt unusual for a young goalie. As has been pointed out heès played the majority of games while in he A so my saying he has been mostly the starter is correct.

for some reason Iève ended up with a french keyboard.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Thats a better post. Last year he lost the job in the playoffs as he was given some time off because his wife had a baby and he never got it back. Also he was in an awkward situation with being called up and down for half the season. Irving has had lots of ups and downs as a goalie but it isnèt unusual for a young goalie. As has been pointed out heès played the majority of games while in he A so my saying he has been mostly the starter is correct.

for some reason Iève ended up with a french keyboard.

I didn't take all of his family affairs and plane rides into account because every player has to deal with this kind of thing. He's not the only pro to get married, have kids or get called up.

edit: I would also add that to say he lost his starting job in the playoffs is being a little generous. By the time playoffs came around, Taylor was already the go to guy.

[kyuss275]

nm

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Psytic

Irving is average, and his attitude isn't the greatest.

Seriously? This is the first time I have ever seen anyone suggest Irving has a poor attitude. Do you have any evidence of this not so great attitude? Or is this just something you created in your mind to try and justify a point that is clearly in the minority.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Seriously? This is the first time I have ever seen anyone suggest Irving has a poor attitude. Do you have any evidence of this not so great attitude? Or is this just something you created in your mind to try and justify a point that is clearly in the minority.

It's not the first time I've heard it. But I've never heard it from a credible source. The only thing I can weigh in on from what I've seen is he doesn't have that icy coldness that Kipper does when he lets one in, especially a softie. Kipper has a drink, helmet down, like it never happened. You could read the emotion right on Irving's face after every goal this season. That kind of poise comes with time, it's tough to be a stone emotionally at 24.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

I didn't take all of his family affairs and plane rides into account because every player has to deal with this kind of thing. He's not the only pro to get married, have kids or get called up.

edit: I would also add that to say he lost his starting job in the playoffs is being a little generous. By the time playoffs came around, Taylor was already the go to guy.

Because Irving was called up to the NHL and during the time he was gone, Taylor played well and didn't falter. Not because Irving played bad. IIRC

[kyuss275]

tomorrows explanation from Feaster should be interesting. Irving played well tonight. I doubt MacDonald could have played much better in the last 2 games.

It does not sound like Kipper will be out long term. We shall find out tomorrow at 10 am.