More police brutality

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Brannigans Law

Would this point of view be described as white privilege by someone? I'm not saying it is, but it sounds like something I would loosely associate with white privilege. The idea that an encounter with the police will be A-OK as long as you're innocent.

Yeah...uhhh...no.

I dont care what color of skin one has...when a policeman says you are under arrest....you are under arrest. Fighting the cop physically or resisting it will end up better...for no one...regardless of race.

But yeah...lets play the race card about it...that always helps things.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yeah...uhhh...no.

I dont care what color of skin one has...when a policeman says you are under arrest....you are under arrest. Fighting the cop physically or resisting it will end up better...for no one...regardless of race.

But yeah...lets play the race card about it...that always helps things.

We know you don't care, but that's not really relevant here. This isn't Calgary, and those aren't Calgary police. It's the NYPD.

There is a racial element to this for the people who live there. There just is. Nobody can argue that. It's not "playing the race card", it's "playing the reality card". You've heard of "stop & frisk". Amodu Diallo, Abner Luima... people just don't ignore what has gone on in the past.

People are afraid of the cops in some places. Justified or not, that is how it is. I'm sure there are plenty of people in that community who don't think "just do what the policeman says" is a guarantee of their own safety, and they may have a legitimate reason.


EDIT: In other news, the choke-holding guy has been liberated of his badge and his gun, so that's a good start. Hopefully he's soon liberated of his liberty, and enjoys a long time in prison.

[underGRADFlame]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

All Officers are told never to use choke holds or any other other techniques that will restrict breathing. This means it was excessive.

Anytime a physical altercation occurs its a dynamic situation... The officer could have intended for a LVNR, and been out of position which caused it to be an inadvertent choke. Only that officer knows what he was intending to do. I'm not saying he didn't choke him, I'm saying it wasn't obviously intensional.


updated abc news article

From updated story...

Policeman's Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch, questioned by ABC News about what constitutes an appropriate use of force, said the public should not rush to judge before the official investigation is concluded.

"At times, when officers are required to make an arrest, they must employ the use of force in order to get compliance from an individual who NYPD policy requires must be rear-cuffed for transport to a precinct," Lynch said. "Force, by its very nature, is an ugly thing to witness. Taken out of the context of what is happening, necessary force can be misinterpreted to be excessive by those who are not trained in law enforcement procedures."

[underGRADFlame]

Originally Posted by SHOGUN

No, I'm not assuming just because he died, he was using excessive force. Putting a choke hold on a person is excessive, considering he did not fight, or physically resist the officers. There are a lot more safer methods of detaining someone than constricting a human's blood flow to the brain and airway isn't one of them.

Just out of curiosity, how would you have effected the arrest of the individual? And he wasn't under detention, he was under arrest.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by SHOGUN

No, I'm not assuming just because he died, he was using excessive force. Putting a choke hold on a person is excessive, considering he did not fight, or physically resist the officers. There are a lot moresafer methods of detaining someone than constricting a human's blood flow to the brain and airway isn't one of them.

I'm not saying that the force used in this situation was reasonable, however, a properly applied carotid control technique can be far less violent and damaging to a person who is combative than say baton strikes, less lethal shotguns, kicks, punches, taser, etc.

[Montana Moe]

I'm obviously not a professional, but in my opinion, he wasn't physically resisting arrest other than saying "Don't touch me!" until the officer grabbed him from behind. At that point, everyone is going to resist as a natural reflex.

I'm sure the officers will claim that he was "showing aggression" by his exaggerated hand movements and elevated voice level prior to that, which is good enough for their peer review disciplinary system, I suppose.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

We know you don't care, but that's not really relevant here. This isn't Calgary, and those aren't Calgary police. It's the NYPD.

There is a racial element to this for the people who live there. There just is. Nobody can argue that. It's not "playing the race card", it's "playing the reality card". You've heard of "stop & frisk". Amodu Diallo, Abner Luima... people just don't ignore what has gone on in the past.

People are afraid of the cops in some places. Justified or not, that is how it is. I'm sure there are plenty of people in that community who don't think "just do what the policeman says" is a guarantee of their own safety, and they may have a legitimate reason.


EDIT: In other news, the choke-holding guy has been liberated of his badge and his gun, so that's a good start. Hopefully he's soon liberated of his liberty, and enjoys a long time in prison.

Yeah? Well here is the "reality" which is indisputable..

When you resist arrest/fight a cop, things are simply going to be worse for you than if you dont regardless of ethnicity. Period.

Seriously...if the guy in this latest video just turns around and puts his hands behind his back (as is requitred by law when you are told you are being arrested) he is probably back in that same spot on the street today...not about to be buried. As sad as this situation is and as wrong as the cop was in using the hold he did...dude is alive today if he doesnt resist.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yeah? Well here is the "reality" which is indisputable..

When you resist arrest/fight a cop, things are simply going to be worse for you than if you dont regardless of ethnicity. Period.

Seriously...if the guy in this latest video just turns around and puts his hands behind his back (as is requitred by law when you are told you are being arrested) he is probably back in that same spot on the street today...not about to be buried. As sad as this situation is and as wrong as the cop was in using the hold he did...dude is alive today if he doesnt resist.

I don't know about indisputable. Maybe he'd be in the hospital right now with a broomstick up his ass. Who knows?

Originally Posted by transplant99

As sad as this situation is and as wrong as the cop was in using the hold he did...dude is alive today if he doesnt resist.

So you think the cop was wrong too. I guess we agree on that. What do you think the repercussions should be?

I hope he goes to jail. I also hope he objects to being arrested in the process. Get that beatdown on videotape!

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by underGRADFlame

Just out of curiosity, how would you have effected the arrest of the individual? And he wasn't under detention, he was under arrest.

Wrong starting point.

By all accounts, the victim broke up a fight. Where did he require to be arrested in the first place? By doing so, the police initiated force upon him. As MM noted above, simple reflex is obvious in his response to being grabbed.

Believers in the non-aggression principle would rightfully side with the victim in this case. And to have anyone condone the action is what is most disturbing.

Geezus, the man DIED! Over WHAT? Do we really value life that little that you would even take that chance in a clearly non-life threatening situation?

Yes, I truly believe in peaceful, non-aggressive freedom, as well as self-defence when I have been aggressed upon.

Look, I don't envy the role of a policeman. But they are the front line in determining whether a situation escalates or not. Why do you think trained negotiators are brought in for hostage situations instead of just going Rambo? Why is it that you seem OK with the arrest in the first place? Ever been arrested? Any idea of the costs involved in having been arrested? Twice in my early years I was unjustly arrested and had the courts rule me innocent. But at a helluva financial and emotional cost.

At least I didn't die though...

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I don't know about indisputable. Maybe he'd be in the hospital right now with a broomstick up his ass. Who knows?

If you wanna play what if games, i can do that all day too. Doesnt really make much sense though.

So you think the cop was wrong too. I guess we agree on that. What do you think the repercussions should be?

I hope he goes to jail. I also hope he objects to being arrested in the process. Get that beatdown on videotape!

I hope he gets due process and if found guilty gets the appropriate punishment.

[jayswin]

I'm seeing images of middle aged, conservative, white males as I read through this thread.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Wrong starting point.

By all accounts, the victim broke up a fight. Where did he require to be arrested in the first place? By doing so, the police initiated force upon him. As MM noted above, simple reflex is obvious in his response to being grabbed.

Believers in the non-aggression principle would rightfully side with the victim in this case. And to have anyone condone the action is what is most disturbing.

Geezus, the man DIED! Over WHAT? Do we really value life that little that you would even take that chance in a clearly non-life threatening situation?

Yes, I truly believe in peaceful, non-aggressive freedom, as well as self-defence when I have been aggressed upon.

Look, I don't envy the role of a policeman. But they are the front line in determining whether a situation escalates or not. Why do you think trained negotiators are brought in for hostage situations instead of just going Rambo? Why is it that you seem OK with the arrest in the first place? Ever been arrested? Any idea of the costs involved in having been arrested? Twice in my early years I was unjustly arrested and had the courts rule me innocent. But at a helluva financial and emotional cost.

At least I didn't die though...

From what I gather from the article, he was under arrest for selling contraband tobacco. Now whether or not this is an effective use of police resources is up to certain peoples opinion, however, at the end of the day the police appeared to have reasonable grounds to arrest him for that offence. Watching the video it was pretty clear that the guy was being uncooperative, it appeared that the police there advised him that he was under arrest for the tobacco and he obviously thought he did nothing wrong. The problem is that the police still have a job to do and at some point if the guy isn't gonna go along, they're gonna have to go hands on with him eventually. They can't just stand around all day waiting for him to decide he wants to come along peacefully, they are compelled to arrest by law.

He's a pretty big guy, the cops likely(I'm assuming here) felt the fight would be on if they just grabbed his wrist or something and wanted to get him in cuffs as fast as possible so the one guy choked him. I don't necessarily think it was the right course of action, but I can understand why it happened that way.

It's absolutely terrible that a man lost his life. It's sad and it could have been avoided.

I'm sorry that you had to go to court twice in your life, however it appears that the "system" worked for you. You were arrested and a judge found you innocent. Unfortunately that could have happened in this situation and we wouldn't even be discussing it right now.

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

From what I gather from the article, he was under arrest for selling contraband tobacco.

Going to just quote this first sentence.

Selling smokes for 50 cents is therefore the root cause of death.

Let that sink in for a moment.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Going to just quote this first sentence.

Selling smokes for 50 cents is therefore the root cause of death.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Maybe you should quote the rest of my sentences. I said whether or not that is a good use of police resources is up to people's opinions. The fact remains, he allegedly broke a law and was being arrested for it. Again, whether you me or anyone else thinks it was a ridiculous thing for the police to be doing is irrelevant. It's not up to the police to make laws, that's up to legislators and courts to interpret. Like I said it's absolutely terrible that this man died, I feel horrible for his family.

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Maybe you should quote the rest of my sentence. I said whether or not that is a good use of police resources is up to people's opinions. The fact remains, he allegedly broke a law and was being arrested for it. Again, whether you me or anyone else thinks it was a ridiculous thing for the police to be doing is irrelevant. It's not up to the police to make laws, that's up to legislators and courts to interpret. Like I said it's absolutely terrible that this man died, I feel horrible for his family.

Call it baiting, and thanks for the bite.

The taxman striketh again...

Albany, NY (March 31, 2014)


Governor Andrew M. Cuomo today announced a new Cigarette Strike Force to crack down on illegal tobacco trafficking and sales. The multi-agency Strike Force is composed of state, local and federal agencies dedicated to stopping the influx of counterfeit and untaxed tobacco products into New York. The Strike Force also focuses on tracing any illicit financial earnings from that criminal activity.

“This new law enforcement strategy will help to crack down on these illegal cigarette sales and capture those smugglers who seek to evade the law and rob the state of the revenue it is rightly owed, thereby putting an additional burden on law-abiding taxpayers,” Governor Cuomo said. “Would-be traffickers are now on notice: They will be caught and they will be brought to justice.”

Well done Cuomo... I particularly like the "rob the state of the revenue it is rightly owed, thereby putting an additional burden on law-abiding taxpayers" part.

Lovely, just freakin'.... lovely.

Call it the "Crack Down On Fiddy Cent"

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Call it baiting, and thanks for the bite.

The taxman striketh again...



Well done Cuomo... I particularly like the "rob the state of the revenue it is rightly owed, thereby putting an additional burden on law-abiding taxpayers" part.

Lovely, just freakin'.... lovely.

Call it the "Crack Down On Fiddy Cent"

Dude, I'm not disagreeing with you per se, I'm just saying you can't pick and choose laws you feel like abiding by.

[Shawnski]

Oh I hear you Zulu, all too clear.

But any reasonable person would NOT consider this arrest warranted in the first place.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

All Officers are told never to use choke holds or any other other techniques that will restrict breathing. This means it was excessive.

Not saying it's true in this case, but just because an officer's arms are around the neck area, doesn't make it a "choke hold". There are very useful and tactical neck controls that can be very efficient in handling a situation, despite the perception of an offender being "choked out".

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Oh I hear you Zulu, all too clear.

But any reasonable person would NOT consider this arrest warranted in the first place.

But police simply enforce the laws that are set by the government. Shouldn't your distaste with said law and arrest powers be directed towards lawmakers instead of the vessel to enforce them?

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by jar_e

But police simply enforce the laws that are set by the government. Shouldn't your distaste with said law and arrest powers be directed towards lawmakers instead of the vessel to enforce them?

Did the lawmakers intend to expend resources for a 50 cent smoke?