Right America: Feeling Wronged

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by peter12

That's a fail.

Read "Road to Serfdom" by Friedrich Hayek. Utopianism is a fallacy and one of the most dangerous ideas ever.

I prefer to think of it more as hyperbole.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I prefer to think of it more as hyperbole.

It depends. Utopianism is a lost dream. As it's realization doesn't depend on any real-world factors, the pursuit is limitless.

We see the destruction it causes in even its most tame form in the failure of great social experiences, such as Johnson's Great Society.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by peter12

It depends. Utopianism is a lost dream. As it's realization doesn't depend on any real-world factors, the pursuit is limitless.

We see the destruction it causes in even its most tame form in the failure of great social experiences, such as Johnson's Great Society.

Right. I don't believe it's possible so whenever someone uses the word I don't even treat it as it is defined. It has more of a 'best possible' meaning to me.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I kinda feel sorry for ol' Ted, but he's made his bed (it may have a prostitute in it), so he's got to lie in it.

Maybe he was too good at his job? All those judgmental, unforgiving, nasty people did learn how to be judgmental, unforgiving and nasty from him.

How people continually fall for these shysters is beyond me. And the funny thing is, in no time at all he'll have another set of rubes following him along.

There has to be some sort of correlation between how pious and pure you claim to be in public and how depraved you are privately. Ted got pinched with a hooker and some crystal meth. Makes you wonder what he was up to that he didn't get caught doing. You know it was something.

I agree, I do feel bad for the guy and honestly if he lived in my neighbourhood I'd gladly help him out if I could. I just think its too easy to hate and I am at times finding myself able to villify others who disagree with me, but when you realize the human suffering someone like him is going through that anger I had towards him goes away.

I mean he's a guy who if he wasn't brought up religious, would be a gay man living a likely happy life as a gay man. But he didn't, and he has a great wife and kids so really even though he struggled with his demons he did find a way to live his life 'mostly' according to his beliefs even under what must me immense internal desires that he has.

I found myself liking the guy a lot after the documentary, I don't forgive his comments on gays and his anti-evolutionary belief, but I would forgive his actions and I'm an atheist, what astounds me his how Evangelical Christians couldn't and not only couldn't they really judged and harshly treated him.

Imagine all the evangelicals in his Church who have tons of sins and secrets that would cause them utter shame and humilitation amongst their friends. If Evangelicals are this unforgiving, lacking in compassion, etc.. I really wonder why the consider themselves believers of Jesus' teachings.

[Azure]

Obama isn't going to create a Utopia....and anyone who thinks he will is deluded.

The guy is bound by the political machine in Washington. Reid and Pelosi are going to force him to do what THEY want done.

I've said it many times, but Washington needs more change than just a President. Congress needs a BIG overhaul too.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Azure

Obama isn't going to create a Utopia....and anyone who thinks he will is deluded.

The guy is bound by the political machine in Washington. Reid and Pelosi are going to force him to do what THEY want done.

I've said it many times, but Washington needs more change than just a President. Congress needs a BIG overhaul too.

Then theres what 'is' utopia, because its different for a lot of people. The best societies I've had a chance to see is Nordic countries, obviously I'm biased, but America is to me far from what I would call utopia, even when America is booming and everthing seems great.

But to me education, healthcare and other socialist factors are important to me, its not very important to most Americans.

I think to build a great society worthy of attempting to be utopian you firstly have to have universal health care, excellent education and possibly things like 4 month paid vacations, extended child birth leave, and many of the extra benefits of a higher tax/higher benefit socialist society.

But thats my ideal, and to an American I'm a dirty communist for even thinking that, even though if I took the most anti-socialist American and forced them to live 5 years in Sweden, Norway, et al; they'd if not change their mind, they would definately no longer look at socialism as some evil the world has to rid.

Its just funny to me to watch the average lower/middle class Americans defending Capitalism without any socialist policies, even though the vast majority of the rich represent a tiny % of their country who are benefited by the policies that make life difficult for poor to middle income americans.

Its a weird thing, its like watching serfs in old Europe defending their lords/ladies for their extravegant lifestyle and justifying it as best for them.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Thor

Its just funny to me to watch the average lower/middle class Americans defending Capitalism without any socialist policies, even though the vast majority of the rich represent a tiny % of their country who are benefited by the policies that make life difficult for poor to middle income americans.

Its a weird thing, its like watching serfs in old Europe defending their lords/ladies for their extravegant lifestyle and justifying it as best for them.

Yeah, it's like they have Stockholm Syndrome or similar but we're probably much the same, just not as obvious. I believe very few people think for themselves. They just repeat what they've been told or read.

[Azure]

I think to build a great society worthy of attempting to be utopian you firstly have to have universal health care, excellent education and possibly things like 4 month paid vacations, extended child birth leave, and many of the extra benefits of a higher tax/higher benefit socialist society.

That, my friend is never going to happen.

There are shades of each in every system, but its impossible to fully incorporate all that into one system of government and expect it to rule.

If you only work 8 months out of the year, who is supposed to pay for your living expenses the other 4 months?

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Azure

That, my friend is never going to happen.

There are shades of each in every system, but its impossible to fully incorporate all that into one system of government and expect it to rule.

If you only work 8 months out of the year, who is supposed to pay for your living expenses the other 4 months?

Not only has that happened, its the standard for Nordic countries, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Iceland.

All of them by UN and many of the agreed upon standards represent the tops of life expectancy, literacy rates, irreligious rate, etc..

It goes by the simple point of view, in the US its "all for one, one for themselves" and in those nordic countries its all for one, one for all.

And those nordic countries are the top of all agreed upon scales of societal happyness, health, education, etc..

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Everything Displaced Flames Fan has been saying reflects my views wholly.

Utopianism is an unattainable thing. Jesus is probably one of the most referenced and followed people who believe in forming a utopian world.

Back when Jesus was doing his thing, the world was absolutely capable of utopianism. Back when the Roman government could easily be toppled.

Now we're in 2009, a world of hypocrisy, corruption, greed, and no mercy. From what I see in the newspaper, on the internet, and on my TV screen, Obama is the closest EVER to being able to come as close to utopianism as the world has ever seen. The opportunity is there.

A holistically utopian world is never going to be possible. It's gotten the point of no return, but if we can do everything we can for the short while we're on this Earth to make it a utopian paradise, then let's do it. Obama can lead the way.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by flip

Pelosi may spotlight some of the more extreme attitudes but the fact remains a significant number of midwesterners and southerners share these ultra right wing socially conservative views.

These types of attitudes or beliefs are not just contained to the Midwest or Southern USA. If you travelled and talked to people in rural areas of Western Canada you would find very similiar opinions.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Tower

But if they new about it.... And didn't do anything about it!!!!! Is that not like pulling the trigger themselves?!! But why would that happen? What would they gain!!!?

Watch the documentary and find out. The FBI agents they interviewed seem pretty puzzled and astonished by the NSA's lack of activity regarding terrorists it knew were in the US. The show doesn't support any kind of conspiracy-theory notion... more incompetence and a supreme unwillingness to share intelligence with FBI/CIA on the part of the NSA.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Thor

Not only has that happened, its the standard for Nordic countries, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Iceland.

All of them by UN and many of the agreed upon standards represent the tops of life expectancy, literacy rates, irreligious rate, etc..

It goes by the simple point of view, in the US its "all for one, one for themselves" and in those nordic countries its all for one, one for all.

And those nordic countries are the top of all agreed upon scales of societal happyness, health, education, etc..

Iceland is doing just fine right now, aren't they?

There were reforms to the Swedish system as well.

Showing that even 'that' style of government has problems.