30 something women feel betrayed by feminism

[GreenTeaFrapp]

She, and the other women like her in the article, are just making excuses why they are single. I suspect the real reason they're still single is that they are too self-absorbed and annoying for any man to want to have a relationship with them.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by HOZ

More self-absorbed women. Nothing like wallowing in narcissism!

Somehow I feel it will end up being my fault anyways.

Yes, this article is clearly about you.

Anyway... it is a strange article. Her example of her surgeon friend being incapable of reconciling her career as surgeon and her role as mother seems odd. Why can't she do both? Surely there are male surgeons who are fathers. Is it that she has a vision of stay-at-home mother that would be impossible to fulfill? Is she obligated to work longer hours than her male counterparts? Sounds less like a feminism-issue and more like an i-want-everything-and-i-want-it-now issue.

As an aside, what's with all the talk in the article about 'genes' and the 'inside woman'? None of that strikes me as particularly feminist or gender-sensitive in the first place.

[llama64]

Women have it bad actually. They get the short end of the stick more often then not simply because if they want kids, they have to sacrifice a portion of their career to do it. A man doesn't need to take off work to carry around a 6lb parasite for a few months and then spend another 6+ months looking after the damn thing. All he needs to be is supportive and buy the mother shiny things occasionally to be a good husband.

Meanwhile the woman gets passed by in the corporate ladder or loses out on experience and opportunities. In the end, this results in lower pay, less opportunities for growth and a general hinderence to their career.

Yeah, women have a choice if they want kids. It's not feminism or mysoginy that holds them back, it's biology and the nature of the game.

What gets me is that people seem to have this notion that single, successful career women are lonely and unhappy. Nice way to buy into a stereotype.

Feminism is not the betrayer... all it claims is that women should have a choice, and they do. If they feel they didn't get everything and it's all feminism's fault, they are delusional, narcissistic and kinda pathetic.

Choices have costs -- can't have everything.

[tjinaz]

Women have it bad actually. They get the short end of the stick more often then not simply because if they want kids, they have to sacrifice a portion of their career to do it. A man doesn't need to take off work to carry around a 6lb parasite for a few months and then spend another 6+ months looking after the damn thing. All he needs to be is supportive and buy the mother shiny things occasionally to be a good husband.

Meanwhile the woman gets passed by in the corporate ladder or loses out on experience and opportunities. In the end, this results in lower pay, less opportunities for growth and a general hinderence to their career.

Yeah, women have a choice if they want kids. It's not feminism or mysoginy that holds them back, it's biology and the nature of the game.

That is the woman's side what about the business? The woman can decide to have children at any time and take 8-12 weeks off and possibly not even come back. What if she is in a critical role for you company what do you do? You have time, effort and training invested in this person and you cannot replace them if they go... by law. I have seen many women who were smart, savvy, and on the fast track leave to have their first child and come back and say sorry I am staying home. Not a real risk with the man. I know female managers that are gun shy of promoting younger women just for that reason. Even if they do come back they are never the same hard charger they were before.

I alway thought feminism was about choices. They wanted the option of a career, staying home or both. They pretty much do. Men have no other real option except work. As much as the article says other women are the ones that look down on her for being careerist, men are much less kind to the stay at home dad as well as the ingraned stigma associated.

Sounds to me like she interpreted can with must and has had a career chip on her shoulder for a long time. What is the point of all the success if you have no one to share it with.... duh...

[GGG]

Originally Posted by llama64

Women have it bad actually. They get the short end of the stick more often then not simply because if they want kids, they have to sacrifice a portion of their career to do it. A man doesn't need to take off work to carry around a 6lb parasite for a few months and then spend another 6+ months looking after the damn thing. All he needs to be is supportive and buy the mother shiny things occasionally to be a good husband.

This is not true a women, if they choose to can take off work 2 weeks before the baby is due and would be able to be back at work 6 weeks later or earlier. Physicaly they would be capable. Now what they need is a man to take Paternaty leave for 6 months as EI allows and then be a stay at home dad. But wait stay at home dad isn't a career choice men are allowed to have becauase then they would be lazy and unsuccessful and therefore unalbe to find a wife.

See menanism hasn't come far enough yet for feminism to be fully successful. It is not socially exceptable for men to be stay at home dads. Just look at all of the posts on the thread the underlying assumption is that the women must raise the child.

So I would tell the feminist in this article to suck it up and make a choice just like everyone else being a women doesn't make you special. If you want a career have it if you want to be a stay at home mom do it. If you want both find a balance that you can live with and don't complain that you have choice.

[Muta]

Meh, I dunno. Me personally, I think I'd be attracted to the ambitious 30-something instead of someone who just wanted to stay at home and pump out units behind the white picket fence.

[jammies]

I read the article and I don't see where she is feeling sorry for herself or claiming it's anyone's fault but her own. Have none of you (those that are criticizing her) ever made a choice that you later regretted?

I'd bet that if the article had been "Playwright reaffirms how happy she is with empowering career choice" HOZ would have been in here finding something wrong with that, too.

[Itse]

Just for the record, my wife stayed home for ~7 months, I stayed home for ~14 months. It's not that common in Finland either, but it does happen and fathers taking more time to be with their children is a fast growing trend.

Three years ago about 5% of men used their "paternal leave", now it's about 15%, and still growing.

I believe we'll see a pretty equal society in our lifetime, at least in the more westernized parts of the world. (Assuming of course the we don't flush the world down the toilet with our evergrowing cycle of consumerism and "pay tomorrow" attitude. But that's another discussion.)

[llama64]

Originally Posted by GGG

This is not true a women, if they choose to can take off work 2 weeks before the baby is due and would be able to be back at work 6 weeks later or earlier. Physicaly they would be capable. Now what they need is a man to take Paternaty leave for 6 months as EI allows and then be a stay at home dad. But wait stay at home dad isn't a career choice men are allowed to have becauase then they would be lazy and unsuccessful and therefore unalbe to find a wife.

See menanism hasn't come far enough yet for feminism to be fully successful. It is not socially exceptable for men to be stay at home dads. Just look at all of the posts on the thread the underlying assumption is that the women must raise the child.

So I would tell the feminist in this article to suck it up and make a choice just like everyone else being a women doesn't make you special. If you want a career have it if you want to be a stay at home mom do it. If you want both find a balance that you can live with and don't complain that you have choice.

To the bolded part... nice assumption. That's all it is though.

You missed my point.

If a woman wants a child, they HAVE to put their career on hold. There is no other choice. We can all pay lip service to labour laws that supposedly equalize things, but the dynamics of the business world just don't bend easily to handle this situation. It has nothing to do with sexism either, it's simply the nature of things.

As was pointed out above, it's tough for a business to handle women getting pregnant, especially if they are understaffed or if the woman is in a key position.

A man doesn't have that problem.

In order for a woman to be successful in the workplace, they need to have a rather large set of met conditions including a man who can stay at home or enough wealth to support day care for at least a decade. It's more work then what a Man needs.

Feminism isn't at fault here. It's given women relative equality and a choice in their life.

And yes, it is socially acceptable for a man to be a stay at home dad.

[jtfrogger]

I know a number of successful women that I work with whose husbands stay at home with the children. In most cases, they split the paternal leave. I even have a male friend who is quite successful in his career and put his career on hold to take paternal leave. It is becoming more acceptable to do this.

Although I agree that it happens, any manager who holds back someone because of the potential of them getting pregnant is probably not a good manager. Good managers push everyone to exceed. I know someone that was in a situation like this. She ended up getting a divorce and not having children. But she no longer works for the employer that held her back.

[Jetsfan]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

That is the woman's side what about the business? The woman can decide to have children at any time and take 8-12 weeks off and possibly not even come back. What if she is in a critical role for you company what do you do? You have time, effort and training invested in this person and you cannot replace them if they go... by law. I have seen many women who were smart, savvy, and on the fast track leave to have their first child and come back and say sorry I am staying home. Not a real risk with the man. I know female managers that are gun shy of promoting younger women just for that reason. Even if they do come back they are never the same hard charger they were before.

I alway thought feminism was about choices. They wanted the option of a career, staying home or both. They pretty much do. Men have no other real option except work. As much as the article says other women are the ones that look down on her for being careerist, men are much less kind to the stay at home dad as well as the ingraned stigma associated.

Sounds to me like she interpreted can with must and has had a career chip on her shoulder for a long time. What is the point of all the success if you have no one to share it with.... duh...

This is an excellent point. Look at the female surgeon who became a stay at home mom. It takes about 12 years to train a surgeon, most of the cost to train her is paid by society through tax dollars funding medical schools and hospitals. How many people are now suffering or dying because there is one less surgeon to treat them?

[jonesy]

the only thing that bugged me about feminism was that idea that you were less if you decided to not pursue a career. Somehow staying home and looking after kids was derided by a lot of feminists.
So while there is now a choice, housewives sure were (and are) looked down upon as lazy and unmotivated. I'll tell you what, I'd rather have my wife raise my kids then some transcient staff at a day care. Our kids are our most precious thing, and i think a 'housewife' IS an honourable and useful career.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by jammies

I read the article and I don't see where she is feeling sorry for herself or claiming it's anyone's fault but her own. Have none of you (those that are criticizing her) ever made a choice that you later regretted?

I'd bet that if the article had been "Playwright reaffirms how happy she is with empowering career choice" HOZ would have been in here finding something wrong with that, too.

Good point... I was quick to deride someone for having regrets, something we all have in one way or another.

I do think it's practicaly more difficult for women to have a child and a family then it is for men. And that's probably due to built-in inequalities within workforce society. So, something like maternity leave is necessary by law, otherwise employers would be able to avoid hiring women for fear they'd want a family down the road and would have to be away from, or quit, work.

Still, I think the problem I have with this article is the form of motherhood she seems to be longing for. She seems to want a very passe form of motherhood: apron, child on hip, baking cupcakes, all at 2pm on a Wednesday. Of course that's going to be irreconcilable with a career. At 2pm on Wednesday you're supposed to be working unless you're on CP! As such I think she might need to update her mental wiki on motherhood or parenthood. Today's parent has to race around, wake up early to catch up on work before the kid's eat breakfast, put aspects of their career on hold to spend time with their family, etc. I guess what I'm saying is she's set up two exclusive worlds and then being upset that she can't have both. That's not really a problem with feminism in my opinion.

[RougeUnderoos]

nm

[tete]

Originally Posted by llama64

To the bolded part... nice assumption. That's all it is though.

You missed my point.

If a woman wants a child, they HAVE to put their career on hold. There is no other choice. We can all pay lip service to labour laws that supposedly equalize things, but the dynamics of the business world just don't bend easily to handle this situation. It has nothing to do with sexism either, it's simply the nature of things.

As was pointed out above, it's tough for a business to handle women getting pregnant, especially if they are understaffed or if the woman is in a key position.

A man doesn't have that problem.

In order for a woman to be successful in the workplace, they need to have a rather large set of met conditions including a man who can stay at home or enough wealth to support day care for at least a decade. It's more work then what a Man needs.

Feminism isn't at fault here. It's given women relative equality and a choice in their life.

And yes, it is socially acceptable for a man to be a stay at home dad.

Well said, llama (sorry, I can't figure out how to multi quote on here)

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

That is the woman's side what about the business? The woman can decide to have children at any time and take 8-12 weeks off and possibly not even come back. What if she is in a critical role for you company what do you do? You have time, effort and training invested in this person and you cannot replace them if they go... by law. I have seen many women who were smart, savvy, and on the fast track leave to have their first child and come back and say sorry I am staying home. Not a real risk with the man. I know female managers that are gun shy of promoting younger women just for that reason. Even if they do come back they are never the same hard charger they were before.

I alway thought feminism was about choices. They wanted the option of a career, staying home or both. They pretty much do. Men have no other real option except work. As much as the article says other women are the ones that look down on her for being careerist, men are much less kind to the stay at home dad as well as the ingraned stigma associated.

Sounds to me like she interpreted can with must and has had a career chip on her shoulder for a long time. What is the point of all the success if you have no one to share it with.... duh...

I'm sorry, but there is no other way to have a family (biological family, anyways) other than the woman carrying the child for 9 months and taking some time off work to physically recover from giving birth (man or woman can take parental leave to care for the child). It's not really "oh, but what about the businesses?", it's a fact of life. Also, businesses need women - Canada doesn't have enough workers for the most part. (current economy/layoffs aside, I guess)

Men can take parental leave as well, you're right it's not as common. But "the risk" that they'll up and "leave" for 8-12 months is still theoretically there... by law they are allowed to take all that time, effort and investment their company has put into them and care for their child for 12 months. It's a bit sad that while a woman's career may be negatively impacted by parental leave, a man's career will DEFINITELY be negatively impacted. Don't you think that sort of forces parents into making a choice that perpetuates the stigma?


As for the "can't replace them while they're away" comment. Yes, they certainly can. As far as I understand, all that is required is that A JOB at the same pay and similar responsibilities is available to a woman (or man) at the end of parental leave. It's not like a woman goes on parental leave and her job just doesn't get done for a year.

Edit: And yes, this topic may be a little too close to home for a current career woman who's expecting a baby.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by llama64

To the bolded part... nice assumption. That's all it is though.

You missed my point.

If a woman wants a child, they HAVE to put their career on hold. There is no other choice. We can all pay lip service to labour laws that supposedly equalize things, but the dynamics of the business world just don't bend easily to handle this situation. It has nothing to do with sexism either, it's simply the nature of things.

As was pointed out above, it's tough for a business to handle women getting pregnant, especially if they are understaffed or if the woman is in a key position.

A man doesn't have that problem.

In order for a woman to be successful in the workplace, they need to have a rather large set of met conditions including a man who can stay at home or enough wealth to support day care for at least a decade. It's more work then what a Man needs.

Feminism isn't at fault here. It's given women relative equality and a choice in their life.

And yes, it is socially acceptable for a man to be a stay at home dad.

But women don't have to put their carreer on hold to have a child, many choose to. You can work up until two weeks before and if you really wanted to you could be back 2 weeks after. (by saying two weeks I am not saying recovering from pregnacny is easy but a determined person could be ready to work by then). Most choose not to do that and men have to make the same choice whether or not to keep working or take time off. The social pressures work in the oppisite directions but the choice must be made by both parents for what works for the family.

I don't see how the bolded part is any different whether the man or the women wants to stay home or work both individuals would need the same level of support for one or both to work. Your statement is based on the assumption that the women will be the primary caregiver.

I would also rephrase one of your statements to it's tough for a business to handle a person choosing to take parental leave, especially if they are understaffed or if the person is in a key position.